From owner-apple Tue Feb 3 05:21:53 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id FAA02979 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 05:21:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from syr.edu (syr.edu [128.230.1.49]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id FAA02974 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 05:21:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from IST.SYR.EDU (ist.syr.edu [128.230.33.105]) by syr.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06880; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 15:24:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from IST/SpoolDir by IST.SYR.EDU (Mercury 1.21); 2 Feb 98 15:24:50 EDT Received: from SpoolDir by IST (Mercury 1.21); 2 Feb 98 15:24:47 EDT Received: from ist.syr.edu by IST.SYR.EDU (Mercury 1.21) with ESMTP; 2 Feb 98 15:24:47 EDT Message-ID: <34D62AB4.C2A855BB@ist.syr.edu> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 15:21:08 -0500 From: Milton Mueller Reply-To: mueller@ist.syr.edu Organization: School of Information Studies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apple@apnic.net, politech list Subject: US Commerce Dept DNS draft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Some quick observations about the draft: The plan's proposal to authorize the creation of only 5 new gTLDs is a truly pathetic error. I don't know the behind-the-scenes politics which led to this, but suspect that it was a concession to the trademark interests. The tiny expansion of gTLD supply was rationalized on the grounds of technical conservatism--don't risk messing up the 'Net with sudden, massive changes. But this is a transparent cover for other concerns, because the Root administrators have been adding 6 or 7 new country code TLDs every year for the past three years, perhaps more. There is no technical rationale for this slow a pace. It is unfortunate that the US Govt still does not seem to understand that the old TLD structure created by IANA in the mid-1980s is a completely inappropriate model for a free market. There can be and should be thousands of TLDs and hundreds of registrars. TLDs, like SLD names, are ways of communicating with the public and identifying documents. Opening up this market is justified on both economic grounds--let supply expand to meet demand--and freedom of expression grounds. The proposed plan is a surprisingly total and resounding defeat for the gTLD-MoU proposal of ITU, ISOC and WIPO. They have been skunked. One would have thought that in the spirit of compromise and international cooperation, the US Gov would have proposed letting them add a few of their gTLDs to the root. In fact, the report doesn't even mention them and proceeds outlining its plan as if the proposal did not exist. As someone who was not at all sympathetic to the gTLD-MoU folks, even I was surprised at how total their defeat appears to have been. NSI did not make out as good as some people are reporting. After handing over control of the root in September, it will have to share registration capabilities in .net, .org. and .com with other registries, and .edu will be transferred to a non-profit organization. --Milton Mueller ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Feb 3 05:40:32 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id FAA03138 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 05:40:32 +0900 (JST) Received: from fractal.chaos.com (fractal.chaos.com [206.5.17.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id FAA03133 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 05:40:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from [206.5.17.2] by fractal.chaos.com (NTMail 3.03.0014/1.abie) with ESMTP id la026011 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 15:43:22 -0500 X-Sender: amr@fractal.chaos.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 15:43:21 -0500 To: mueller@ist.syr.edu, apple@apnic.net, politech list From: Tony Rutkowski Subject: Re: US Commerce Dept DNS draft In-Reply-To: <34D62AB4.C2A855BB@ist.syr.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: <20432239400272@chaos.com> Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Milton, >One would have thought that in the spirit of compromise and >international >cooperation, the US Gov would have proposed letting them add a few >of their gTLDs to the root. In fact, the report doesn't even mention >them >and proceeds outlining its plan as if the proposal did not exist. As Have you considered that in light of the Green Paper constituting a policy/rule making proceeding, the USGOV was obliged to treat all potential parties potentially engaging in registration services in a non-discriminatory manner. CORE is simply on an equal footing with everyone else. --tony ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Feb 3 12:06:49 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id MAA06534 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:06:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from info.isoc.org (info.isoc.org [198.6.250.9]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA06529 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:06:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from linus.isoc.org (mailhub.isoc.org [192.168.1.10]) by info.isoc.org (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id VAA21856; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:12:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from newlatitude.isoc.org (pool2.lucy.isoc.org [192.168.1.32]) by linus.isoc.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA11523; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:06:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980202203316.00b11100@pop.isoc.org> X-Sender: heath@pop.isoc.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 20:33:16 -0500 To: mueller@ist.syr.edu, apple@apnic.net, politech list From: Don Heath Subject: Re: US Commerce Dept DNS draft In-Reply-To: <34D62AB4.C2A855BB@ist.syr.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk At 03:21 PM 2/2/98 -0500, Milton Mueller wrote: >The proposed plan is a surprisingly total and resounding defeat for >the gTLD-MoU proposal of ITU, ISOC and WIPO. They have been skunked. >One would have thought that in the spirit of compromise and >international >cooperation, the US Gov would have proposed letting them add a few >of their gTLDs to the root. In fact, the report doesn't even mention >them >and proceeds outlining its plan as if the proposal did not exist. As >someone >who was not at all sympathetic to the gTLD-MoU folks, even I was >surprised at how total their defeat appears to have been. Let's see, how does that old quote go? Something about a death being greatly exaggerated??? ;-) See you at INET'98, Geneva 21-24, July 98 ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Feb 3 14:22:23 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id OAA07521 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:22:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from farley.cisco.com (farley.cisco.com [204.179.2.54]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA07516 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:22:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from kiwi.cisco.com (kiwi [199.35.98.98]) by farley.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id VAA27083; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:24:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com (rtp-dial-1-37.cisco.com [171.70.158.37]) by kiwi.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/CISCO.WS.1.2) with SMTP id VAA05466; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:18:37 +0800 Message-ID: <01BD30A6.3C637FA0.bgreene@cisco.com> From: Barry Raveendran Greene Reply-To: "bgreene@cisco.com" To: "'mueller@ist.syr.edu'" , "apple@apnic.net" , politech list Subject: RE: US Commerce Dept DNS draft Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:14:24 +0800 Organization: Cisco Systems - Corporate Consulting Group X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hello Milton, How about coming to APRICOT and tell this to Ira Magaziner's face? He's a key note on the 18th. Barry On Tuesday, February 03, 1998 4:21 AM, Milton Mueller [SMTP:mueller@ist.syr.edu] wrote: > Some quick observations about the draft: > The plan's proposal to authorize the creation of only 5 new gTLDs > is a truly pathetic error. I don't know the behind-the-scenes politics > which > led to this, but suspect that it was a concession to the trademark > interests. > The tiny expansion of gTLD supply was rationalized on the grounds of > technical > conservatism--don't risk messing up the 'Net with sudden, massive > changes. > But this is a transparent cover for other concerns, because the Root > administrators > have been adding 6 or 7 new country code TLDs every year for the past > three years, perhaps more. There is no technical rationale for this slow > a pace. > > It is unfortunate that the US Govt still does not seem to understand > that > the old TLD structure created by IANA in the mid-1980s is a completely > inappropriate model for a free market. There can be and should be > thousands > of TLDs and hundreds of registrars. TLDs, like SLD names, are ways > of communicating with the public and identifying documents. Opening up > this > market is justified on both economic grounds--let supply expand to meet > demand--and freedom of expression grounds. > > The proposed plan is a surprisingly total and resounding defeat for > the gTLD-MoU proposal of ITU, ISOC and WIPO. They have been skunked. > One would have thought that in the spirit of compromise and > international > cooperation, the US Gov would have proposed letting them add a few > of their gTLDs to the root. In fact, the report doesn't even mention > them > and proceeds outlining its plan as if the proposal did not exist. As > someone > who was not at all sympathetic to the gTLD-MoU folks, even I was > surprised at how total their defeat appears to have been. > > NSI did not make out as good as some people are reporting. > After handing over control of the root in September, it will have to > share registration capabilities in .net, .org. and .com with other > registries, and .edu will be transferred to a non-profit organization. > --Milton Mueller > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | > | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Feb 13 09:37:06 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id JAA16182 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:37:06 +0900 (JST) Received: from farley.cisco.com (farley.cisco.com [204.179.2.54]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id JAA16177 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:36:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from kiwi.cisco.com (kiwi [199.35.98.98]) by farley.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA19887; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:39:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com ([171.68.85.150]) by kiwi.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/CISCO.WS.1.2) with SMTP id QAA18458; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:38:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:32:10 +0800 Message-ID: <01BD3859.E0B8E3A0.bgreene@cisco.com> From: Barry Raveendran Greene Reply-To: "bgreene@cisco.com" To: "'Don Heath'" , Milton Mueller Cc: Toru Takahashi , "apia-member@apia.org" , "faoc@teckla.apnic.net" , "ap-tld@apnic.net" , "dom-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "chon@cosmos.kaist.ac.kr" Cc: "jun@wide.ad.jp" , "registrar@overseas.co.tw" , "gtld@melbourneit.co.au" , "mao@cnnic.net.cn" , "royfang@pcdc.net" , "ckp@nca.or.kr" Cc: "admin@namehost.com" , "info@globalnames.net" , "hongde@gbnic.gb.com.cn" , "info@capital.net.au" , "arakawa@email.co.jp" , "terasima@tokyonet.ad.jp" Cc: POC , Jon Postel , "CORE@core.gtld-mou.org" , Chapters , "alan@connected.org" , tomg Cc: Greg Hurst , John Gilmore , Vint Cerf , "David W. Maher" , Bob Shaw , Geoff Huston Cc: Albert Tramposch <0002082489@mcimail.com>, "'APPLe'" Subject: RE: [faoc] Re: xTLD BoF and mailing list Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:03:22 +0800 Organization: Cisco Systems - Corporate Consulting Group X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hi Don, That seemed really productive. Thanks for the brain dump. It very useful. Barry On Thursday, February 12, 1998 4:35 AM, Don Heath [SMTP:heath@isoc.org] wrote: > At 11:50 AM 2/11/98 -0500, Milton Mueller wrote: > >You made some reasonable points, but please note the following: > > > >Patrik Faltstrom wrote: > > > >> [gTLD-MoU] was formed by the IAHC committee, and signed by IANA and ISOC, > >> > >> not ITU and WIPO. > > > >The IAHC committee was a political coalition of ISOC, IANA,ITU, and WIPO. > >Please don't be disingenuous about this. > > I am sorry to weigh in on this - I'm not apologizing, I'm just sorry > to get involved in this by and large unfruitful thread. However, I > was there. I put the IAHC together and I know how it was done and > with what motivation. This is said without ego, it's just the way > it was. > > Postel wrote a proposal. In it, he described an ad hoc committee to > select the registrars, define the TLDs, assign them, set up procedures > for doing this process, and disband. > > He gave it to ISOC to implement. In June 1996, the ISOC BoT voted to > accept the proposal, with a proviso that it be fleshed out with a > business plan. > > At that point, I was involved in email discussions on the topic, and > in forums around the world as well. It was clear to me that the > proposal could never work as defined. There was significant > international resistance to what looked like a very US-centric plan, > controlled by US-thinking. > > So, I sought to pull together a group of people, geographically dispersed, > with knowledge on the subject, who could also offer some clout (thus, > the ITU - with their telco and worldwide reach, WIPO - for similar > reasons, but with the IP and legal reach, INTA - again, worldwide > reach representing many many business, corporations, and the trademark > issues), plus the US government in the form of the Federal Networking > Council. I then took the opportunity to use the idea from the Postel > plan to get members appointed from the international "Internet > Community" from the IAB, IANA, and of course, ISOC. As an aside, the > IAB and IANA appointees came into the group thinking they were doing > the Postel plan. It was a little awkward, but quickly resolved. I > originally wanted to include members from CIX, NSI, APNIC, and RIPE. > Ultimately I gave in to the argument that the group would get too big; > some interested groups would have to be excluded from direct IAHC > "membership"; a smaller group could react better and more efficiently; > it could look like conflict of interest if NSI et al were in it; etc. > > The idea was, is, and always has been, to develop a wide spread view > of what should be done - but not to implement the Postel plan, unless, > if by coincidence, that happened to be the result of the process. It > was not. It should be noted that at the very beginning, Jon Postel > agreed with what I wanted to do. Jon has always refrained from any > attempt to dictate what should be done; rather, deferring to the > will of the Internet stakeholders. As a result, IANA fully got > behind the new approach to be worked by the IAHC. I have copied > Jon and a few others on this note. > > No one else interfered with what I put together. I personally went > to Pekka Tarjanne (ITU), Arpad Bogsch (WIPO), and INTA. INTA, because > David Maher was there at the time, and I wanted him on the IAHC. It > turned out that he resigned his spot at INTA, and INTA appointed another. > As a result, David became an ISOC appointee. > > There just wasn't any political stuff going on; there were no meetings > thinking about composition (other that when I wanted to expand the > IAHC within the 1st week of it's inception - and those discussions > were a few emails, and phone conversations as I report above). In > fact, both Tarjanne and Bogsch, independently, wrote me notes saying > they would provide an individual, but in no way were ITU, or WIPO > endorsing what we were doing and that they would not and could not > officially participate. Later, of course, ITU agreed to handle > some minor administrative duties, and we brought WIPO in, also in > an administrative role only, regarding the dispute policy processes. > > All the speculation about conspiracy, sinister motives, attempting > to take control, etc., are just plain hogwash. The IAHC was formed > only to work in the way the Internet was developed and is flourishing. > That is by grass roots, bottom up consensus building and self- > determination. That's what we tried to do. > > The incredible effort to derail, stall, mischaracterize the motivation > and the work of the IAHC, to discredit it, etc., has been personally > frustrating and disappointing; but, it did a good job. No one nor > any group has remotely come up with anything that comes close to what > the IAHC/POC/CORE/PAB has done. > > The changes that have been made and continue to be made in this thing > are proof that it is open to all and that anyone can influence its > outcome, providing there is wide enough acceptance. The group does > not sit in private and decide what to do; it gets its direction from > you. Still, as the saying goes, "you can't please everybody." > > We had no massive PR machine and lobbying effort to drum up support; > we simply did it the way it has been done - the way that has produced > one of the most profound entities ever - the Internet. The forces who > had a self interest to protect, on the other hand, were and are, very > effective in conjuring up misinformation and obfuscating the real > issues. There has been an incredible amount of work, thought, and > brilliant synthesis to get where we are. This has involved thousands > of people from all over the world - the single most publicly scrutinized > effort ever introduced into the Internet. It should not be discarded > lightly. > > > > >> So, if one want to start a discussion on how/if/when gTLDs have to be > >> created, one have to discuss things like IF we should have gTLDs, and > >> more > >> important (as we can say that removing .com is not possible) how the > >> registries are to exist. > > > >This discussion is taking place. That is what the Notice of Inquiryand the > >Green Paper are about. It is more than obvious that the gTLD > >did NOT establish a consensus about this. Otherwise the gTLD-MoU > >would have been implemented with no objection. > > > >> The only way of solving these things, IAHC and POC found after > >> discussing > >> this for some 1.5 years, that one have to limit the number of registries, > >> > >> to probably one or two, and also that things work best if the registries > >> together form the registry, like in the UK and Sweden -- especially the > >> UK > >> which have a system that works! > > > >Bureaucratic agencies always seem to believe that limiting marketplacesto > >one > >or two easily regulated players is the answer to any problems > >and conflicts. Certainly this makes life easier for the established, > >vested > >interests, such as the trademark holders. And it m,akes life easier > >for the regulators. But it is not the path toward an open, thriving, > >diverse > >and innovative market. > >The Internet reached its current glorious state of development precisely > >because it was structured to allow private organizations and players the > >freedom to jump on it and minimized administrative overhead. We need > >to keep thinking along those lines. > > > >> gTLD -- which in turn says that we should have many registries, which > >> the > >> trade mark community says definitely no to because disputes will be so > >> difficult to handle. > > > >The trademark community is just wrong. Domain names are not trademarksand > >infringement that takes place on the Web can be rememdied without > >giving trademark holders prior review of every domain name handed out > >in the world. The trademark/copyright interests have a long history of > >making outrageous and unreasonable claims. They wanted to ban videotape > >recorders in the United States. They were wrong about that, and they > >are wrong about domain names. Privately, many trademark lawyers > >agree with me. But they recognize that it is in the economic self-interest > >of large multinational trademark holders to extend their property rights > >as far as possible. If we let "big trademark" run rampant over the > >Internet, they will do it. Therefore, we must stand up to them. > >Learn how to say "NO!" > > > >> There are hundreds of nasty dragons hidden in the GP paper which you > >> will > >> encounter not until you start writing down the details. > > > >Bring on the dragons! > >Milton Mueller > > > > > > > > > > See you at INET'98, Geneva 21-24, July 98 > ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Feb 13 11:56:32 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA17109 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:56:32 +0900 (JST) Received: from green.glocom.ac.jp (green.glocom.ac.jp [210.160.32.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA17103 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:56:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from dyn013.glocom.ac.jp (dyn013.glocom.ac.jp [210.160.33.13]) by green.glocom.ac.jp (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id sa034468 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:57:50 +0900 X-Sender: ajp@popper.glocom.ac.jp X-Mailer: Macintosh Eudora Pro Version 2.1.4-J Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:57:43 +0900 To: apple@apnic.net From: ajp@glocom.ac.jp (Adam Peake) Subject: IP: itag announcement Message-Id: <02575055316144@glocom.ac.jp> Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk > Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:30:09 -0500 > To: ip-sub-1@majordomo.pobox.com > From: Dave Farber > Subject: IP: itag announcement > > The Chair of the Internet Architecture Board (IAB), Brian Carpenter, > and the Director of the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA), > Jon Postel, jointly announce the formation of the "IANA Transition > Advisors Group" (ITAG). > > The ITAG will serve as a set of senior advisors to the IANA during the > transition to a new organization with formal status as a non-profit > corporation with a board of directors. This group will cease to exist > when the board of directors of the new organization has its first > meeting. The members of the ITAG have declared themselves as not > candidates for the initial IANA board. > > The ITAG will consist of 6 members. The initial members(*) are: > > Randy Bush - Verio > Brian Carpenter - IBM UK > Dave Farber - U Penn > Geoff Huston - Telstra > John Klensin - MCI > Steve Wolff - Cisco > > * organization affiliation for identification purposes only. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sat Feb 14 21:32:50 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id VAA00607 for apple-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:32:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from iron.singnet.com.sg (iron.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.29]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id VAA00587; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:32:12 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from isjfvzjl (ts900-1916.singnet.com.sg [165.21.158.68]) by iron.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA22521; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 20:35:06 +0800 (SGT) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 20:32:34 Subject: APRICOT Reminder To: anr-talk@anr.org, apple@apnic.net, gts@glue.umd.edu, apnic-talk@apnic.net X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Plese note that APRICOT begins in two days time in Manilla. Many exciting things are expected to happen...the keynote by Ira Magaziner...the TLD BoF.....the women in IT meeting.....the APNG meetings.....the APPLe meetings......the APIA meetings....the Internet Infrastructure debate.....etc. Come be a part of this only existing operations meeting in AP...this is not just another conference... check www.apricot.net for more details ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Feb 24 08:13:03 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id IAA00558 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:13:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from info.isoc.org (info.isoc.org [198.6.250.9]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA00553 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:12:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from linus.isoc.org (mailhub.isoc.org [192.168.1.10]) by info.isoc.org (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id SAA26700; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:15:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from newlatitude.isoc.org (dhcp15.isoc.org [192.168.1.115]) by linus.isoc.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA02767; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:08:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980223181054.01622100@pop.isoc.org> X-Sender: heath@pop.isoc.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:10:54 -0500 To: Jim Fleming From: Don Heath Subject: Re: The People vs. The ISOC/IAHC Cc: "'/ Linda Wessel'" , "'Tony Rutkowski'" , "'Antitrust List'" , "'APPLe '" , "'Adam Todd'" , "'Audrie Krause'" In-Reply-To: <01BD4039.AC429480@pc.unir.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk At 09:01 AM 2/23/98 -0600, Jim Fleming wrote: > >@@@@@ http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/email/late.htm > >"Comments of the Internet Society (ISOC)" > >"These discussions, among the broad Internet community as well as in the >Internet Engineering Task Force (which was not suited to making progress on >policy, rather than technical, issues), did not result in a rough consensus. >Therefore, the Internet Society created the IAHC." Go to the URL cited above, do a search for "Internet Society," and look at item 3 in the first part, to see the actual context of the above. See you at INET'98, Geneva 21-24, July 98 ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Feb 24 15:44:25 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA11257 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:44:25 +0900 (JST) Received: from merki.connect.com.au (merki.connect.com.au [192.189.54.36]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA11247 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:44:17 +0900 (JST) From: Online@aba.gov.au Received: from janus.UUCP (Uaba@localhost) by merki.connect.com.au with UUCP id RAA18763 (8.8.5/IDA-1.7 for apple@apnic.net); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:47:19 +1100 (EST) Received: by janus.aba.gov.au (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA15253; Tue, 24 Feb 98 17:26:12 +1100 X400-Received: by mta abamta in /PRMD=ausgovaba/ADMD=telememo/C=au; Relayed; 24 Feb 98 17:26:09 +1100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ausgovaba/ADMD=telememo/C=au; Relayed; 24 Feb 98 17:33:21 +0000 Date: 24 Feb 98 17:26:12 +1100 Delivery-Date: 24 Feb 98 17:26:12 +1100 Message-Type: Multiple Part X400-Originator: Online@aba.gov.au X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ausgovaba/ADMD=telememo/C=au;XGW-980224173321+0000-27756] X400-Recipients: apple@apnic.net Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Message-Id: <0224173321-ABA Community Education programs* @MHS> Importance: normal Subject: ABA & Community Education programs Autoforwarded: FALSE To: apple@apnic.net Priority: normal Conversion: Allowed Conversion-With-Loss: Allowed Alternate-Recipient: Prohibited Content-Identifier: ABA Community E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Dear All The Australian Broadcasting Authority (ABA) has been directed by the Minister for Communications, Information Economy and the Arts to investigate _national educational strategies to ensure that Australians accessing services available on-line utilise these services in the most effective and productive manner_, among other matters. We would be interested to hear about any organisations or individuals currently operating Community Education programs, preferably within Australia, but also within the Asia-Pacific region. These programs could be aimed at the community in general, or to specific groups within the community. For example children, the aged, rural and remote users, indigenous people and people with disabilities. If any of you are aware of any programs, could you please let me know of the organisation and/or relevant URLs either through APPLe or by contacting me directly. My contact details are below. Cheers David Goldstein ______________________________ David Goldstein Project Officer, On-line Services Australian Broadcasting Authority e-mail: david.goldstein@aba.gov.au phone: +61 2 9334 7938 fax: +61 2 9334 7799 URL: http://www.dca.gov.au/aba/hpcov.htm ______________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Feb 24 23:52:45 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id XAA19433 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:52:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from zinc.singnet.com.sg (zinc.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.31]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA19428 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:52:41 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from laina (ts900-1317.singnet.com.sg [165.21.160.133]) by zinc.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13326 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:55:30 +0800 (SGT) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 22:56:45 Subject: FW: [APIA-BOARD] [APIA-MEMBERS] FW: India's ISP Policy : Not so fast .. To: apple@apnic.net X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Another good example of the need to coordinate with the right authorities when dealing with Internet issues, Laos is facing a similar problem today. Laina RG --- On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:31:52 +0800 Barry Raveendran Greene wrote: FYI .. Govt. Internet policy invalid, says TRAI Date: 18-02-1998 :: Pg: 14 :: Col: d NEW DELHI, Feb. 17. The Telecom Regulatory Authority of India (TRAI) today pronounced the Internet policy of the government as invalid. ``The Internet policy, formulated and announced by the Government without obtaining TRAI's recommendations...cannot be held to be valid,'' the two-member Bench, comprising the chairman, Justice S. S. Sodhi and vice chairman, Mr. B. K. Zutshi, said in its 23 page order. The regulator held that it was ``mandatory'' for the Government to have the TRAI's recommendations on the proposed Internet policy. It may be mentioned that the Department of Telecom (DoT), which was scheduled to make available application forms for licensing Internet service providers (ISPs) on February 18, will no longer be able to do so. The DoT now has two options - to approach the regulator for its recommendations or appeal to the high court. -----------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------------------- Name: Laina Raveendran Greene E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg Date: 2/24/98 Time: 10:56:45 PM This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Wed Feb 25 00:01:49 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA19593 for apple-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:01:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from iron.singnet.com.sg (iron.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.29]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id AAA19584 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:01:15 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from laina (ts900-1317.singnet.com.sg [165.21.160.133]) by iron.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25750; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:03:55 +0800 (SGT) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 23:04:45 Subject: FW: Amb. Rita Hayes on E-Commerce To: apia-board@apia.org, apple@apnic.net, apia-members@apia.org X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk For your information, the WTO may be looking at Electronic Commerce issues soon. Laina RG --- On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 03:39:10 -0500 "Ashley, Charlie H(MSMAIL)" wrote: February 19, 1998 On February 19, 1998, the U.S. Ambassador to the WTO--Rita Hayes-presented a proposal to the WTO General Council that would ensure for duty-free treatment for cyberspace. The text of the U.S. proposal is contained in Attachment I. In Attachment II, is the text of Ambassador Hayes's statement at the General Council meeting. Attachment III contains a series of "Questions and Answers" regarding the U.S. proposal. GLOBAL ELECTRONIC COMN1ERCE Proposal by the United States February 19, 1998 Currently, no Member of the WTO considers electronic transmissions as importations for customs duties purposes and, thus, no Member imposes customs duties on them. The United States delegation would like to inscribe on the agenda of the General Council the proposal that WTO Members should agree to continue this current practice so that the absence of customs duties on electronic transmissions would remain. The United States will be making a statement at the General Council's meeting of 19 February 1998. Presentation by U.S. Ambassador Rita Hayes on Global Electronic Commerce: Duty Free Treatment for Electronic Transmissions Thank you Mr. Chairman. I take the floor today to discuss with my colleagues in the WTO the fact that the Information Age is upon us and that electronic commerce will continue to dramatically affect the way all of us live and work. In light of advent of the Information Age, my delegation is putting forward a new idea. The idea is that we ought to agree in the WTO to continue the current practice of each WTO member with regard to the customs duty treatment provided to electronic transmissions. Today, no Member considers that electronic transmissions as importations for customs purposes and, thus, no Member imposes customs duties on electronic transmissions. Our proposal is to codify this practice in the WTO. Mr. Chairman, I believe that the WTO can welcome and be a part of the Information Age, or it can let other organizations take the lead in determining how electronic commerce relates to the multilateral trading system. I ask that each delegation take a careful look at the written U.S. text circulated by the Secretariat (document "WTIGC/W/78 of February 9). A careful look at the proposal reveals that it is very straightforward, it is very simple and it is very direct. Let me try Mr. Chairman to clarify even further the idea so that we all understand what I am NOT talking about. First, I am not discussing tax policies of any country. I am not suggesting that we discuss or take decisions on any measure that would affect the way in which our tax authorities treat electronic transmissions. My discussion today is solely focused on customs duties. Second, I am not discussing reducing tariffs on goods imported through normal commercial channels. Let me be clear: I am not talking about the circumstance in which, for example, a tennis racket, a bouquet of flowers, or a refrigerator are ordered through electronic means -- let's say over the Internet -- but delivered through normal commercial channels. Third, I am not discussing how we define what is an electronic transmission, that is, whether it is a good, a service, or something in between. While it may prove to be fascinating theoretically, I am not proposing that we debate at this time the nature of electronic transmissions. It seems to me that there should be WTO work in this area and my delegation wants to work with others in conducting it. I am proposing that we send a message that WTO Members intend to maintain their current practices. Today, no WTO Member considers electronic transmissions as importations for customs duty purposes. Such transmissions cannot even be given a tariff classification in the Harmonized Tariff Schedule. Not a single Member imposes customs duties on electronic transmissions. There are no customs duties on telephone calls across borders; there are no customs duties on fax messages; and, there are no customs duties when computers access data bases. Telephone calls, faxes and computers share a common element: they rely on electronic transmissions that may travel across borders. The growth of this environment has brought us into the Information Age. And, part of this environment has been that these electronic transmissions are not considered as importations for customs duty purposes. The idea is simple: it is to declare a continuation of our current practices. That is, to declare that we will maintain our current practices not to impose duties on electronic transmissions. Mr. Chairman, I have often been asked about the way in which the WTO can take this decision. How we record a consensus, should one emerge, is a matter for future discussion. Today, my delegation is not asking this body to decide anything. Rather, we are asking the General Council to begin exploring the issue and to focus first on the concept of maintaining current practices. Then we can focus on how to formalize our agreement. Mr. Chairman, I have also been asked about the United States position on addressing bigger issues related to global electronic commerce and the WTO. There is interest in knowing about the impact of global electronic commerce on the General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS). And, there is a realization that electronic commerce is already changing some of the day-to-day practices in the customs area. As is true of many governments in this room, the United States is currently studying these issues. Some say that it is premature to discuss the U.S. idea of codifying existing practice regarding the customs duty treatment of electronic transmissions. These people say that too little is known about the intersection between the WTO and global electronic commerce. Frankly, I do not agree. It is perfectly appropriate and, indeed, timely for us to discuss the idea of maintaining our current practice regarding the customs duty treatment of electronic transmissions. First, electronic commerce will only increase in importance in the next few years and, certainly, in the next century. It is important that the WTO demonstrate that it is responsive to the demands of this new century. One way to make this point is to start agreeing on points that do not require any particular concession by any country. That is why the best place to begin is with preserving current practice the customs duty treatment of electronic transmissions. Agreeing on this point would send the right message to the business community--that the WTO wants to promote the expansion of electronic commerce. Second, an agreement regarding our customs duty practices does not set a precedent for our practices in other areas, such as taxes or regulation. Third, any agreement would be but a first and important step of what will be a journey for the WTO. Any agreement would not prevent us from studying, analyzing, and reviewing all of the other aspects of electronic commerce. Indeed, the WTO Research Division will be issuing a report in the next weeks that all of us will want to study carefully. Mr. Chairman, I conclude my remarks by reminding delegations that the idea being proposed is quite simple: that is, to agree to maintain our current practices whereby no country considers electronic transmissions as importations for customs duty purposes. The desire to study, analyze and review should not prevent us from acting in an area that does not require a concession from any Member. In fact, agreement on this narrow approach would allow us to place the WTO boldly in the forefront of work on global electronic commerce and squarely facing the demands of the next century. Thank you. Questions and Answers U.S. Proposal on Duty-Free Cyberspace Q: What does the U.S. seek with its proposal with regard to customs duties and electronic transmissions? A: The U.S. proposal envisages that Members continue their current practices of not treating electronic transmissions of information as importations for purposes of customs duties. In other words, the proposal envisions a codification of the status quo. Q: What is the significance of such a WTO "codification" that electronic transmissions, such as conveyances over the Internet, will continue to be treated not as importations subject to customs duties? A: The U.S. proposal is intended to be an important first step in as the WTO undertakes work on electronic commerce. The WTO has made significant contributions to the development of the global electronic environment infrastructure through the Information Technology Agreement and the Agreement on Basic Telecommunications. This progressiveness by the WTO would continue with a codification of current practices that ensure continued treatment of electronic transmissions not as importations for customs duties purposes. Q: Is there other work to be done at the WTO on electronic commerce? A: Yes. Electronic commerce -- and in particular the dynamic growth of the Internet -- is already having a profound effect on how business is conducted. Future work will, by necessity, touch upon many traditional areas of concern to WTO members -- such as under the GATS or in the area of government procurement, as well as with regard to various elements within the important area of trade facilitation. The U.S. proposal is a small but important first step for the WTO to begin this journey. Such an action by the WTO will further enhance the certainty and stability which allows the electronic commerce environment to flourish, and will also be a WTO measure that is a positive action directly affecting the increasing number of individual citizens throughout the world who utilize the Internet each and everyday. Q: Other international bodies are dealing with GEC. Why should the WTO be involved? A: The WTO is involved in electronic commerce. There is no backing away from the issues and we should welcome the advances that electronic commerce can bring to the global economy. Q: Under the U.S. proposal concerning on electronic commerce and customs duties, are Members being asked to provide a concession? A: No. The proposal simply seeks a codification of current practices. Q: What is the current situation? Does it vary from Member to Member? A: The current situation is that no Member's trade regime treats electronic transmissions -- for example a phone call, a fax transmission, or a computer accessing a data base (such as via the Internet) -- as an importation for the purpose of the application of customs duties. Q: Would this involve a change of WTO commitments? A: No. The U.S. is unaware of any Member that has a tariff line in its WTO Schedule that provides for customs duties on electronic transmissions, such as those over the Internet. Indeed, such transmissions do not have a tariff classification in the Harmonized Commodity Description and Coding System (also known as the Harmonized Tariff Schedule). Q: Isn't it necessary to define electronic transmissions, such as those involving Internet conveyances, as a "good" or a "service," or something else? A: Such an undertaking is unnecessary, and may actually make a simple situation more complicated. The U.S. proposal simply seeks agreement to codify the current practice with regard to the treatment of electronic transmissions for purposes of customs duties. Q: Has the World Customs Organization taken a view on this question of the customs treatment of electronic transmissions across borders? A: In 1997, a working party of technical experts at the World Customs Organization considered the question of whether downloaded transmissions were to be considered "imported goods." was concluded that the question presented was a policy matter for national governments to decide. Q: What is the U.S. practice with regard to customs treatment of electronic transmissions? A: The U.S. Tariff Schedule contains a special "national" general note which states that "telecommunications transmissions" are not goods subject to the provisions of the tariff schedule. The U.S. Customs Service has issued rulings confirming such treatment for electronic transmissions of, for example, information accessed from a computer database and transmitted via satellite -- rendering such transmissions as exempt from being considered an importation for purposes of being subject to customs duties. Q: Is there any relevance to the 1984 GA11 Decision 4.1 on the customs valuation of software (which states that customs duties should be applied only to the value of the carrier media rather than the value of the "data or instructions" contained thereon)? A: At the time of the GATT Decision 4. 1, computers, electronics, and information technology was in its infancy. Yet it was agreed at that time that an importation of information on carrier media (e.g., a floppy disk) was merely an importation of the carrier media itself -even though in terms of the interest of the importer the carrier media was incidental. For purposes of the U.S. proposal, it is notable that at the time of the 1984 GATT Decision 4.1, the Chairman of the GATT Committee on Customs Valuation observed that "software can be transmitted by wire or satellite, in which case the question of customs duties does not arise."(VALNVI14/Rev.2; 25 July 1984). Q: A book or magazine can be dutiable and treated as an importation. Is it reasonable to give duty free status to electronic transmissions that may represent information contained in a book or magazine? A: The information in a book or magazine is not dutiable; the book or magazine itself is dutiable. Moreover, it already is the practice of Members not to treat electronic transmissions as importations for customs duties, whether the information represents pages that were copied and faxed across a border, or information from a computer database transmitted across borders via satellite or a telephone network. The U.S. proposal is intended to codify this practice within the WTO. -------------------------------------------------------- With Compliments: Chuck Ashley Economic Officer U.S. Embassy Singapore Tel: (65) 476-9470 Fax: (65) 476-9389 E-mail: ashleych@singawpoa.us-state.gov U.S. Embassy Singapore website: http://home.pacific.net.sg/~amemb/ U.S. Department of State website: http://www.state.gov -----------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------------------- Name: Laina Raveendran Greene E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg Date: 2/24/98 Time: 11:04:45 PM This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Wed Feb 25 01:31:04 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id BAA20705 for apple-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 01:31:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from syr.edu (syr.edu [128.230.1.49]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id BAA20700 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 01:30:59 +0900 (JST) Received: from IST.SYR.EDU (ist.syr.edu [128.230.33.105]) by syr.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29590 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from IST/SpoolDir by IST.SYR.EDU (Mercury 1.21); 24 Feb 98 11:33:58 EDT Received: from SpoolDir by IST (Mercury 1.21); 24 Feb 98 11:33:52 EDT Received: from ist.syr.edu by IST.SYR.EDU (Mercury 1.21) with ESMTP; 24 Feb 98 11:33:43 EDT Message-ID: <34F2F667.BBF68989@ist.syr.edu> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:33:43 -0500 From: Milton Mueller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apple@apnic.net Subject: India's ISP Policy : Not so fast .. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk I would say, instead, "another example of the attempt by established telecom regulators not to let the Internet slip out of its grasp." Question: Is there a need to "coordinate with the right [sic] authorities"?? Or is there a need to take side in a power struggle?? --MM laina@singnet.com.sg wrote: > Another good example of the need to coordinate with the right authorities > when dealing with Internet issues, Laos is facing a similar problem today. > > Laina RG > > --- On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:31:52 +0800 Barry Raveendran Greene > wrote: > > FYI .. > > Govt. Internet policy invalid, says TRAI > > Date: 18-02-1998 :: Pg: 14 :: Col: d > > NEW DELHI, Feb. 17. > > The Telecom Regulatory Authority of India (TRAI) today pronounced > the Internet policy of the government as invalid. > > ``The Internet policy, formulated and announced by the Government > without obtaining TRAI's recommendations...cannot be held to be > valid,'' the two-member Bench, comprising the chairman, Justice > S. S. Sodhi and vice chairman, Mr. B. K. Zutshi, said in its 23 > page order. > > The regulator held that it was ``mandatory'' for the Government > to have the TRAI's recommendations on the proposed Internet > policy. It may be mentioned that the Department of Telecom (DoT), > which was scheduled to make available application forms for > licensing Internet service providers (ISPs) on February 18, will > no longer be able to do so. The DoT now has two options - to > approach the regulator for its recommendations or appeal to the > high court. > > > -----------------End of Original Message----------------- > > ------------------------------------- > Name: Laina Raveendran Greene > E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg > Date: 2/24/98 > Time: 10:56:45 PM > > This message was sent by Chameleon > ------------------------------------- > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | > | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Feb 26 11:51:57 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA27507 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:51:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from gate1.sprintlink.net (gate1.sprintlink.net [199.0.233.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA27501 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:51:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from mercury.res.sprintlink.net by gate1.sprintlink.net via smtpd (for teckla.apnic.net [202.12.28.129]) with SMTP; 26 Feb 1998 02:54:53 UT Received: from localhost (vgoel@localhost) by mercury.res.sprintlink.net (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA15370 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:43:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: mercury.res.sprintlink.net: vgoel owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:43:02 -0500 (EST) From: Vab Goel X-Sender: vgoel@mercury.res.sprintlink.net To: apple@apnic.net Subject: Core:GP is U.S.-Centric.. + Irving says.. (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk FYI... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 02:32:58 +0100 (MET) From: Sascha Ignjatovic To: gtld discuss Cc: ietf@ns.ietf.org Subject: Core:GP is U.S.-Centric.. + Irving says.. http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/domnam/TWB19980223S0017 Domain Name Green Paper Is U.S.-Centric, Opponents Say (02/23/98; 6:43 p.m. EST) By Mary Mosquera, TechWeb The Council of Registrars (CORE), a source of vocal opposition to the Clinton administration's proposed domain name policy, on Monday called the government plan "U.S.-centric" and said it would result in too much regulation. The plan, known as the "green paper," calls for a private, nonprofit corporation to control the entire Internet domain name system. The corporation would have the power to appoint up to five independent organizations to be registries, each of which could administer just one new top-level domain. CORE, which plans to launch its own initiative next month with seven new domain names, called the plan U.S.-centric. Alan Hanson, chairman of CORE's executive committee, said the plan "pays lip service to the international scope of the Internet, but doesn't include international companies, industries, or organizations." CORE will unveil its own recommendations for administration, management, and competition among domain names in two weeks, Hanson added. But an assistant secretary with the Commerce Department's National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA), Larry Irving, disagreed with CORE's criticism. "We do take in the international view," said Irving, who helped draw up the administration's plan. "Remember, this proposal was written in pencil. We think there will be give and take in formulating the domain name policy." The government's main concerns are "keeping the Internet stable, taking it private, and taking it from a monopoly to making it competitive," Irving added. Since it was published on the Internet 23 days ago, the government's domain name plan has been downloaded 25,000 times, Irving said. Also Monday, the U.S. government said March 23 is the final day for public comment on the proposed domain name system, shepherded by Ira Magaziner, President Clinton's technology adviser. Comments can be sent to the NTIA or by e-mail at dns@ntia.doc.gov. ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Feb 26 20:31:26 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id UAA07487 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:31:26 +0900 (JST) Received: from venus.kdd.co.jp (venus.kdd.co.jp [202.32.122.11]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id UAA07482; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:31:22 +0900 (JST) Received: by venus.kdd.co.jp; id UAA16774; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:33:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from mailbus.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp by jupiter.kdd.co.jp; (8.7.5/1.1.8.2/13Apr95-0252PM) id UAA18338; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:33:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from gateway.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp by mailbus.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp (8.8.8/KDD-1.00MX) id UAA21323; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:38:37 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199802261138.UAA21323@mailbus.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp> X-Sender: obata@mailbus.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2-J (32) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:34:02 +0900 To: apnic-announce@apnic.net, apple@apnic.net, apng-all@apng.org From: Yoshihiro Obata Subject: Thank you David, Yoshiko and Kyoko Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk I would like to express my sincere gratitude to Mr. David Conrad, Ms. Yoshiko Okazaki Chong and Ms. Kyoko Day for their excellent work in APNIC. Without their sacrificial efforts, we might have seen a mess in the Internet in Asia instead of the steady growth, which we are enjoying. Although there is still a little hope that Ms. Chong and Ms. Day remain in APNIC, I think I will be very regretful if I miss a chance to show my gratitude. I already regret that we did not show our appreciation in the last APNIC meeting in Manila. I feel very sad that Randy is leaving APNIC but I think his decision will open a door for his great future and release him from the pressures to be the Director General of APNIC. Anyway, I am sure we will remain in the same business and have many chances to see each other and discuss various issues of Internet. I think it will not be enough to repeat my appreciation and say "so long, farewell, a bientot "("sayounara, mata auhimade" in Japanese). Yoshihiro Obata Yoshihiro OBATA (yo-obata@kdd.co.jp) Manager, Internet Business, Global Multimedia Business Dept. Kokusai Denshin Denwa (KDD) Co., Ltd., Japan Phone +81-3-3347-6081, Fax +81-3-3347-5690 ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Feb 27 11:29:50 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA18957 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:29:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from ns.ami.co.jp (ns.ami.co.jp [210.149.55.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA18941; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:29:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (slip202-135-59-77.kw.jp.ibm.net [202.135.59.77]) by ns.ami.co.jp (8.8.8+2.7Wbeta7/3.6Wpre2-ami:1.1) with SMTP id LAA18780; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:27:20 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199802270227.LAA18780@ns.ami.co.jp> X-Sender: davek@mail.ami.co.jp X-Mailer: Macintosh Eudora Pro Version 2.1.4-J Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:38:54 +0900 To: Yoshihiro Obata , apnic-announce@apnic.net, apple@apnic.net, apng-all@apng.org From: davek@ami.co.jp (David Kellar) Subject: Re: Thank you David, Yoshiko and Kyoko Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hear! Hear! I think Obata-san has expressed very well how all of us feel. The hard work of David, Yoshiko and Kyoko has been key to the development of the Internet in this region, and very much appreciated. Now that it is time for the next step, I wish them the very best for the future. David Kellar At 8:34 PM 98.2.26, Yoshihiro Obata wrote: > I would like to express my sincere gratitude to Mr. David Conrad, Ms. > Yoshiko Okazaki Chong and Ms. Kyoko Day for their excellent work in APNIC. > Without their sacrificial efforts, we might have seen a mess in the > Internet in Asia instead of the steady growth, which we are enjoying. > > Although there is still a little hope that Ms. Chong and Ms. Day remain in > APNIC, I think I will be very regretful if I miss a chance to show my > gratitude. I already regret that we did not show our appreciation in the > last APNIC meeting in Manila. > > I feel very sad that Randy is leaving APNIC but I think his decision will > open a door for his great future and release him from the pressures to be > the Director General of APNIC. Anyway, I am sure we will remain in the > same business and have many chances to see each other and discuss various > issues of Internet. > > I think it will not be enough to repeat my appreciation and say "so long, > farewell, a bientot "("sayounara, mata auhimade" in Japanese). > > Yoshihiro Obata > > > > > > Yoshihiro OBATA (yo-obata@kdd.co.jp) > Manager, Internet Business, Global Multimedia Business Dept. > Kokusai Denshin Denwa (KDD) Co., Ltd., Japan > Phone +81-3-3347-6081, Fax +81-3-3347-5690 > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | > | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- David Kellar Vice President Access Media International, Inc. 3-6-16 Kita-Aoyama, Minato-ku, Tokyo 107 JAPAN TEL: 81-3-5467-5771 FAX: 81-3-5467-5785 EMAIL: davek@ami.co.jp ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Feb 27 12:22:19 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id MAA19756 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:22:19 +0900 (JST) Received: from mailgate.TokyoNet.AD.JP (mycity.shinjuku.TokyoNet.AD.JP [202.239.60.163]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA19740; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:22:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from adhoc.shinjuku.TokyoNet.AD.JP (adhoc.shinjuku.TokyoNet.AD.JP [202.239.60.108]) by mailgate.TokyoNet.AD.JP (8.8.6/3.6Wbeta4-06/30/97) with ESMTP id MAA15961; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:23:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from toru-bib.TokyoNet.AD.JP (sekaido-bldg069.prv.shinjuku.TokyoNet.AD.JP [192.168.134.69]) by adhoc.shinjuku.TokyoNet.AD.JP (8.8.5/3.4W405/16/97) with SMTP id MAA17219; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:23:54 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <9802270323.AA01860@toru-bib.TokyoNet.AD.JP> From: Toru Takahashi Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:23:46 +0900 To: davek@ami.co.jp (David Kellar) Cc: Yoshihiro Obata , apnic-announce@apnic.net, apple@apnic.net, apng-all@apng.org Subject: Re: Thank you David, Yoshiko and Kyoko In-Reply-To: <199802270227.LAA18780@ns.ami.co.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AL-Mail 1.32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk To say good bye is too early, I feel. I want Randy to continue DG till next DG will be assigned and work well. Also, Yoshiko-san and Kyoko-san. There will be hard transitional days. I have to work for this as a new member of Executive Council. Pls help EC activities. Toru Takahashi davek@ami.co.jp (David Kellar) wrote$B!'(J >Hear! Hear! I think Obata-san has expressed very well how all of us feel. >The hard work of David, Yoshiko and Kyoko has been key to the development >of the Internet in this region, and very much appreciated. Now that it is >time for the next step, I wish them the very best for the future. > >David Kellar > >At 8:34 PM 98.2.26, Yoshihiro Obata wrote: >> I would like to express my sincere gratitude to Mr. David Conrad, Ms. >> Yoshiko Okazaki Chong and Ms. Kyoko Day for their excellent work in APNIC. >> Without their sacrificial efforts, we might have seen a mess in the >> Internet in Asia instead of the steady growth, which we are enjoying. >> >> Although there is still a little hope that Ms. Chong and Ms. Day remain in >> APNIC, I think I will be very regretful if I miss a chance to show my >> gratitude. I already regret that we did not show our appreciation in the >> last APNIC meeting in Manila. >> >> I feel very sad that Randy is leaving APNIC but I think his decision will >> open a door for his great future and release him from the pressures to be >> the Director General of APNIC. Anyway, I am sure we will remain in the >> same business and have many chances to see each other and discuss various >> issues of Internet. >> >> I think it will not be enough to repeat my appreciation and say "so long, >> farewell, a bientot "("sayounara, mata auhimade" in Japanese). >> >> Yoshihiro Obata >> >> >> >> >> >> Yoshihiro OBATA (yo-obata@kdd.co.jp) >> Manager, Internet Business, Global Multimedia Business Dept. >> Kokusai Denshin Denwa (KDD) Co., Ltd., Japan >> Phone +81-3-3347-6081, Fax +81-3-3347-5690 >> >> ___________________________________________________________________________ >> | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | >> | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------- >David Kellar >Vice President >Access Media International, Inc. >3-6-16 Kita-Aoyama, Minato-ku, Tokyo 107 JAPAN >TEL: 81-3-5467-5771 FAX: 81-3-5467-5785 >EMAIL: davek@ami.co.jp > > >___________________________________________________________________________ >| To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | >| Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------- TAKAHASHI Toru toru@TokyoNet.AD.JP http://www.TokyoNet.AD.JP/people/toru/toru.html Chairman, Tokyo Internet Corp. Chairman, Internet Association of Japan(IAJ) Member of Executive Council, APNIC Phone:+81-3-3341-6302 Fax:+81-3-3341-2881 Address:8th Floor, Sekaido bldg., 3-1-1 Shinjuku, Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo 160 Japan ------------------------------------------------------ ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Feb 27 14:26:57 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id OAA21859 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:26:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from copper.singnet.com.sg (copper.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA21854; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:26:52 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from laina (ts900-6307.singnet.com.sg [165.21.163.59]) by copper.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25851; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:29:49 +0800 (SGT) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 13:20:59 Subject: RE: APNIC update To: apnic-talk@apnic.net, apple@apnic.net, apng-all@apng.org, Yoshihiro Obata X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk I too would like to add my appreciation for what David, Kyoko and Yoshiko have done for APNIC. I think it is worth mention. I am however particularly concerned about continuity for APNIC, whether exisitng staff are being taken care of, is the EC consulting directly with the staff to see what their concerns are etc. I am one of those who am not totally convinced that the decision to move to Australia was a wise one. There are many other places in Asia which could also have been considered. Also I am under the impression that the fact that both Yoshiko and Kyoko have a family was not considered carefully. Unlike some of us that can move quickly, others have to consider spouse's jobs, children etc.not to mention whether they will get a visa. I am concerned that a five year lease in Australia was signed without looking at these other factors... I think APNIC may be better off loosing some money over breaking the five year lease, then loosing its valuable staff and deal with unneccesary hassles such as importation taxes, taxes, limitation to having other Asians on staff etc. A decision such as this should be considered very carefully, and there are PEOPLE involved, and let's not forget it.Their feeleings are important. I got the impression during APRICOT that nobody cared to consutl with Kyoko or Yoshiko on the future of APNIC. Also APNIC is a regional body, and we should strive to have Asians involved in it as well, as part of the empowerment of this region. Having it in Australia may make it more Anglo-Saxon based only...another consideration to keep in mind. Kudos again to David and his team...BUT while David may be dying to leave let's not loose his team as well, especially if they leave not of their own choice but out of circumstances. Laina RG --- On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:06:03 +0800 (SGT) Yoshihiro Obata wrote: Although there is still a little hope that Ms. Chong and Ms. Day remain in APNIC, I think I will be very regretful if I miss a chance to show my gratitude. I already regret that we did not show our appreciation in the last APNIC meeting in Manila. I feel very sad that Randy is leaving APNIC but I think his decision will open a door for his great future and release him from the pressures to be the Director General of APNIC. Anyway, I am sure we will remain in the same business and have many chances to see each other and discuss various issues of Internet. I think it will not be enough to repeat my appreciation and say "so long, farewell, a bientot "("sayounara, mata auhimade" in Japanese). Yoshihiro Obata Yoshihiro OBATA (yo-obata@kdd.co.jp) Manager, Internet Business, Global Multimedia Business Dept. Kokusai Denshin Denwa (KDD) Co., Ltd., Japan Phone +81-3-3347-6081, Fax +81-3-3347-5690 -----------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------------------- Name: Laina Raveendran Greene E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg Date: 2/27/98 Time: 1:20:59 PM This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Feb 27 15:52:35 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA23271 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:52:35 +0900 (JST) Received: from venus.kdd.co.jp (venus.kdd.co.jp [202.32.122.11]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA23264; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:52:29 +0900 (JST) Received: by venus.kdd.co.jp; id PAA02396; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:54:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from mailbus.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp by jupiter.kdd.co.jp; (8.7.5/1.1.8.2/13Apr95-0252PM) id PAA14805; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:54:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from gateway.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp by mailbus.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp (8.8.8/KDD-1.00MX) id PAA28202; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:59:09 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199802270659.PAA28202@mailbus.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp> X-Sender: obata@mailbus.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2-J (32) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:54:33 +0900 To: laina@singnet.com.sg From: Yoshihiro Obata Subject: RE: APNIC update Cc: apnic-talk@apnic.net, apple@apnic.net, apng-all@apng.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk At 13:20 98/02/27, laina@singnet.com.sg wrote: laina> laina> considered. Also I am under the impression that the fact that both Yoshiko and Kyoko have a laina> family was not considered carefully. Unlike some of us that can move quickly, others have to laina> consider spouse's jobs, children etc.not to mention whether they will get a visa. I am laina> concerned that a five year lease in Australia was signed without looking at these other laina> factors... These are the issues I was very hesitated to raise. I think we have the responsibility in choosing the former EC members since they were the only people who could have helped Randy from an official point of view. Although I heard many stories from both Yoshiko and Kyoko, I could not find a way to help them, which I am sure responsible as an emplyee of both an APNIC and JPNIC member. I think we should have elected at least one woman for EC who might be very sensitive to these problems. I hope we will be more careful for these issues in the future. Yoshi Yoshihiro OBATA (yo-obata@kdd.co.jp) Manager, Internet Business, Global Multimedia Business Dept. Kokusai Denshin Denwa (KDD) Co., Ltd., Japan Phone +81-3-3347-6081, Fax +81-3-3347-5690 ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Feb 27 16:38:33 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id QAA24004 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:38:33 +0900 (JST) Received: from green.glocom.ac.jp (green.glocom.ac.jp [210.160.32.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA23992 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:38:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from dyn036.glocom.ac.jp (dyn036.glocom.ac.jp [210.160.33.36]) by green.glocom.ac.jp (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ka041064 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:40:00 +0900 X-Sender: ajp@popper.glocom.ac.jp X-Mailer: Macintosh Eudora Pro Version 2.1.4-J Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:39:32 +0900 To: laina@singnet.com.sg, apnic-talk@apnic.net, apple@apnic.net, apng-all@apng.org, Yoshihiro Obata From: ajp@glocom.ac.jp (Adam Peake) Subject: RE: APNIC update Message-Id: <07400006639616@glocom.ac.jp> Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Extract from the APNIC 1997 Annual Report referring to re-location attached (the URL is http://www.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/other_activities.htm#c5_2) Would appear that other AP region locations for APNIC were considered. I am not an APNIC member so cannot comment on how open the process was, but have heard nothing to suggest that the membership were kept in the dark about this. Certainly the Executive Council were involved. I was under the impression that Kyoko planned to move to Brisbane? As one not completely innocent of involvement with earlier rumors, (for which I feel a complete ass, but definitely not alone :-( I first apologize and second respectfully ask that we be careful about what we say regarding staff/personal matters as they very quickly become none of our business. Might be worth noting that while Australia may not be in Asia, it is Pacific. Of the 5 Executive Council members, 1 is "Anglo-Saxon". 20% of APNIC membership is from Pacific nations. Where's the problem? Adam ------- APNIC Headquarters Relocation Around first quarter 1997, APNIC began to investigate what would be required to hire additional staff for the APNIC office in Japan. After lengthy consultations with various organizations, it was established that the question of whether APNIC needed to pay tax in Japan was somewhat indeterminate. Specifically, according to two of three accountancy firms, APNIC should pay taxes, while the third indicated exactly the opposite. After significant discussion, it was decided to evaluate the costs of doing business in Japan vis-$B/(Jvis doing business in other Asia or Pacific Rim locations. Location Survey APNIC obtained preliminary information on the costs of living and costs of doing business from various sources including newspapers, magazines, and the World Wide Web. Based on the preliminary data gathered, APNIC obtained more detailed information for the following cities: Auckland, New Zealand Brisbane, Australia Hong Kong Jakarta, Indonesia Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Melbourne, Australia Singapore Sydney, Australia Tokyo, Japan Based on cost-of-living surveys done by CRG, and taxation and other business related costs provided by KPMG Peat Marwick and Arthur Andersen, and given the fact that APNIC membership fees are considered non-taxable income in Australia, the Secretariat determined that the cost of doing business would be lowest in Brisbane, Australia. Office Search After the Executive Council decided on Brisbane, Australia as the new location for APNIC$B%f(Js headquarters, the search for the actual office space was initiated. After consultation with individuals in Brisbane, including local service providers, KPMG Peat Marwick, and the Queensland government, APNIC made use of the real estate agency of Jones Lang Wooten, a large commercial properties agency. The constraints APNIC placed on the new office were: 1. Less than US $2500 per month (including outgoings) 2. Large enough to support significant staff growth over the next few years 3. Convenient access After reviewing several properties, APNIC entered into a five-year lease agreement for property at 33 Park Road, Milton. Fit out of the office space is scheduled to occur during February with occupancy slated for the beginning of March. Re-incorporation As a function of relocating to Australia, APNIC, Ltd. has become re- incorporated in Australia. The new incorporation of APNIC, now APNIC Pty Ltd., follows the same general structure of APNIC, Ltd. in the Seychelles, modifying the Memorandum and Articles of Association only in those areas in which either the existing articles did not make sense (e.g., making APNIC, Ltd. be subject to Seychelles law) or where concepts in Seychelles law did not apply in Australia (e.g., "bearer shares" which do not exist in Australia). APNIC expects to migrate all existing members to the new corporate structure by the end of second quarter 1998. The relocation of APNIC to Brisbane, Australia is expected to be completed by that time as well. At 1:20 PM 98.2.27, laina@singnet.com.sg wrote: > I too would like to add my appreciation for what David, Kyoko and Yoshiko >have done for > APNIC. I think it is worth mention. > > I am however particularly concerned about continuity for APNIC, whether >exisitng staff are > being taken care of, is the EC consulting directly with the staff to see >what their concerns > are etc. I am one of those who am not totally convinced that the decision >to move to > Australia was a wise one. There are many other places in Asia which could >also have been > considered. Also I am under the impression that the fact that both >Yoshiko and Kyoko have a > family was not considered carefully. Unlike some of us that can move >quickly, others have to > consider spouse's jobs, children etc.not to mention whether they will get >a visa. I am > concerned that a five year lease in Australia was signed without looking >at these other > factors... > > I think APNIC may be better off loosing some money over breaking the five >year lease, then > loosing its valuable staff and deal with unneccesary hassles such as >importation taxes, > taxes, limitation to having other Asians on staff etc. A decision such as >this should be > considered very carefully, and there are PEOPLE involved, and let's not >forget it.Their > feeleings are important. I got the impression during APRICOT that nobody >cared to consutl > with Kyoko or Yoshiko on the future of APNIC. > > Also APNIC is a regional body, and we should strive to have Asians >involved in it as well, > as part of the empowerment of this region. Having it in Australia may >make it more > Anglo-Saxon based only...another consideration to keep in mind. > > Kudos again to David and his team...BUT while David may be dying to leave >let's not loose > his team as well, especially if they leave not of their own choice but >out of circumstances. > > Laina RG > > --- On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:06:03 +0800 (SGT) Yoshihiro Obata > > wrote: > > Although there is still a little hope that Ms. Chong and Ms. Day remain > in > APNIC, I think I will be very regretful if I miss a chance to show my > gratitude. I already regret that we did not show our appreciation in > the > last APNIC meeting in Manila. > > I feel very sad that Randy is leaving APNIC but I think his decision > will > open a door for his great future and release him from the pressures to > be > the Director General of APNIC. Anyway, I am sure we will remain in the > same business and have many chances to see each other and discuss > various > issues of Internet. > > I think it will not be enough to repeat my appreciation and say "so > long, > farewell, a bientot "("sayounara, mata auhimade" in Japanese). > > Yoshihiro Obata > > Yoshihiro OBATA (yo-obata@kdd.co.jp) > Manager, Internet Business, Global Multimedia Business Dept. > Kokusai Denshin Denwa (KDD) Co., Ltd., Japan > Phone +81-3-3347-6081, Fax +81-3-3347-5690 > > -----------------End of Original Message----------------- > > ------------------------------------- > Name: Laina Raveendran Greene > E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg > Date: 2/27/98 > Time: 1:20:59 PM > > This message was sent by Chameleon > ------------------------------------- > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | > | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Feb 27 17:07:07 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id RAA24448 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:07:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from chaiwan.hk.super.net (chaiwan.hk.super.net [202.14.67.34]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA24440; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:07:01 +0900 (JST) Received: from hk.super.net (root@hk.super.net [202.14.67.4]) by chaiwan.hk.super.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13720; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:09:13 +0800 (HKT) Received: from mypc.hk.super.net (max13-5.hk.super.net [202.64.29.5]) by hk.super.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA20461; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:09:09 +0800 (HKT) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:09:09 +0800 (HKT) Message-Id: <199802270809.QAA20461@hk.super.net> X-Sender: pindar@is1.hk.super.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: toru@tokyonet.ad.jp From: pindar@HK.Super.NET (Pindar Wong) Subject: Re: APNIC Update Cc: davek@ami.co.jp, obata@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, apple@apnic.net, apng-all@apng.org, apnic-talk@apnic.net, "David R. Conrad" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hi All, [ Apologies for duplicates ] Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with the expressions of thanks from Yoshi, David, Toru and Laina ... I also agree that it is too early to say goodbye. Too early to say goodbye to David -- too early to say goodbye to Ms. Chong and Ms. Day. Why? Can we really say that we've really worked through the issues surrounding David's departure or the issues to do with APNIC's move to Australia (e.g. impact on existing staff)? My understanding is that David is leaving because he tired of the politics and wants to go to focus on engineering matters. Nothing wrong with this. This Engineer-doesn't-want-to-be-boss or Engineer-not-right-person-to-be-boss syndrome is common enough in start-up companies where : a) the founding engineer is not the 'right' person to be the CEO b) the founding engineer doesn't want to be the CEO. I think that we have a bit of both in the case of APNIC. Moreover, I see great parallels between the growth experiences of start-up companies and APNIC. They are just growing pains... not terminal diseases. In start-up companies, don't they just create a CTO (Chief Technical Officer) role or somesuch? Aren't there plenty of technical issues which remain to be resolved with the APNIC database, registry tools (double byte?) etc. ? Whilst I agree that if David wants to leave then there is nothing that you or I can do to stop him, the point is that I don't see/understand why David *has* to leave APNIC. All he's said is that the role of DG requires different set of skills from his own and that he's an engineer. Can we fault him for this? I don't think so. [ David: Please correct me if I'm wrong] If he want's to leave then sure... the door was left open as of Sunday night. This being said, we certainly don't need to close that door prematurely with 'good-byes'. The question is, have we really tried to formally retain him in some form? Retainer basis, month-to-month contract extension etc. etc. We could after all, explore what engineering work needs to be done and see if David is interested as CTO or somesuch. He's should know what the registry needs... he's done it for years. As Laina has also just raised, ample consideration should also be given to the key staff such as Ms. Chong and Ms. Day in the current restructuring. Cheers, Pindar PS: As you know David has formally stepped down from the role as DG on Sunday. Currently who is formally in-charge? As the Exco represents the interests of all APNIC members, I would highly encourage transparency in these critical times. e.g. who is now the Chair of APNIC-Exco? PPS: Separate rant... please keep APNIC *only* dealing with numbers and AS issues. No names/DNS stuff please! >From: Toru Takahashi >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:23:46 +0900 >To: davek@ami.co.jp (David Kellar) >Cc: Yoshihiro Obata , apnic-announce@apnic.net, > apple@apnic.net, apng-all@apng.org >Subject: Re: Thank you David, Yoshiko and Kyoko >In-Reply-To: <199802270227.LAA18780@ns.ami.co.jp> >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Mailer: AL-Mail 1.32 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp > >To say good bye is too early, I feel. I want Randy to continue DG till next >DG >will be assigned and work well. Also, Yoshiko-san and Kyoko-san. There will >be >hard transitional days. I have to work for this as a new member of Executive >Council. Pls help EC activities. > >Toru Takahashi > >davek@ami.co.jp (David Kellar) wrote$B!'(J >>Hear! Hear! I think Obata-san has expressed very well how all of us feel. >>The hard work of David, Yoshiko and Kyoko has been key to the development >>of the Internet in this region, and very much appreciated. Now that it is >>time for the next step, I wish them the very best for the future. >> >>David Kellar >> >>At 8:34 PM 98.2.26, Yoshihiro Obata wrote: >>> I would like to express my sincere gratitude to Mr. David Conrad, Ms. >>> Yoshiko Okazaki Chong and Ms. Kyoko Day for their excellent work in APNIC. >>> Without their sacrificial efforts, we might have seen a mess in the >>> Internet in Asia instead of the steady growth, which we are enjoying. >>> >>> Although there is still a little hope that Ms. Chong and Ms. Day remain in >>> APNIC, I think I will be very regretful if I miss a chance to show my >>> gratitude. I already regret that we did not show our appreciation in the >>> last APNIC meeting in Manila. >>> >>> I feel very sad that Randy is leaving APNIC but I think his decision will >>> open a door for his great future and release him from the pressures to be >>> the Director General of APNIC. Anyway, I am sure we will remain in the >>> same business and have many chances to see each other and discuss various >>> issues of Internet. >>> >>> I think it will not be enough to repeat my appreciation and say "so long, >>> farewell, a bientot "("sayounara, mata auhimade" in Japanese). >>> >>> Yoshihiro Obata >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Yoshihiro OBATA (yo-obata@kdd.co.jp) >>> Manager, Internet Business, Global Multimedia Business Dept. >>> Kokusai Denshin Denwa (KDD) Co., Ltd., Japan >>> Phone +81-3-3347-6081, Fax +81-3-3347-5690 >>> > >>> >___________________________________________________________________________ >>> | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | >>> | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------- >>David Kellar >>Vice President >>Access Media International, Inc. >>3-6-16 Kita-Aoyama, Minato-ku, Tokyo 107 JAPAN >>TEL: 81-3-5467-5771 FAX: 81-3-5467-5785 >>EMAIL: davek@ami.co.jp >> >> >>___________________________________________________________________________ >>| To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | >>| Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >-------------------------------------------------------- >TAKAHASHI Toru toru@TokyoNet.AD.JP > >http://www.TokyoNet.AD.JP/people/toru/toru.html >Chairman, Tokyo Internet Corp. >Chairman, Internet Association of Japan(IAJ) >Member of Executive Council, APNIC >Phone:+81-3-3341-6302 >Fax:+81-3-3341-2881 >Address:8th Floor, Sekaido bldg., 3-1-1 Shinjuku, > Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo 160 Japan >------------------------------------------------------ > >_________________________________________________________________________ >| To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net | >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Feb 27 17:09:34 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id RAA24541 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:09:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from chaiwan.hk.super.net (chaiwan.hk.super.net [202.14.67.34]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA24518; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:09:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from hk.super.net (root@hk.super.net [202.14.67.4]) by chaiwan.hk.super.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13913; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:12:00 +0800 (HKT) Received: from mypc.hk.super.net (max13-5.hk.super.net [202.64.29.5]) by hk.super.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA20617; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:11:57 +0800 (HKT) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:11:57 +0800 (HKT) Message-Id: <199802270811.QAA20617@hk.super.net> X-Sender: pindar@is1.hk.super.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ajp@glocom.ac.jp (Adam Peake), laina@singnet.com.sg, apnic-talk@apnic.net, apple@apnic.net, apng-all@apng.org, Yoshihiro Obata From: pindar@HK.Super.NET (Pindar Wong) Subject: RE: APNIC update Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk At 04:39 PM 2/27/98 +0900, Adam Peake wrote: [snip] >Around first quarter 1997, APNIC began to investigate what would be >required to hire additional staff for the APNIC office in Japan. After >From First 1Q-97 things have gotten a whole bunch cheaper! Yes... that even includes Hong Kong. ;) p. ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Feb 27 17:50:25 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id RAA25499 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:50:25 +0900 (JST) Received: from copper.singnet.com.sg (copper.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA25489; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:50:19 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from laina (ts900-5418.singnet.com.sg [165.21.161.38]) by copper.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28510; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:53:11 +0800 (SGT) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 16:48:49 Subject: RE: APNIC update To: laina@singnet.com.sg, apnic-talk@apnic.net, apple@apnic.net, apng-all@apng.org, Yoshihiro Obata , Adam Peake X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-2022-JP Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Yes, Kyoko is planning to go as she has to if she was to remain with APNIC. Question is whether she will in fact get a visa. It is not easy for Asians to get visas to Australia. They have very strcit requirements, and recent outbursts by some politicians in Australia that there are too many Asians in Australia certainly do not help either. Also, Kyoko has a daughter and her daughter may not get a visa either. Then there is Yoshiko..why has she decided not to come..forced by circumstances..??? Adam,, all I am saying is have these human factors been considered. If they still want to go to Australia, perhaps APNIC should make provisions to get these staff members other jobs so they won't be left in the slump. Kyoko's uncertain situation should be given more sensitivity over..she does have a teenage daughter which involves other issues. Sure, it may not be the "business" of everyone, but I want it to be someone's business. Please let is not be a "its not my business" forum and leave good people stranded. As for the issue over Anglo-Saxons, yes Pacific is part of APNIC..and yes we do have many others in the EC...I was referring to Australian work permit laws and immigration policies, that itself would mean a more Anglo-Saxon staffing. Laina RG --- On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:39:32 +0900 Adam Peake wrote: I was under the impression that Kyoko planned to move to Brisbane? As one not completely innocent of involvement with earlier rumors, (for which I feel a complete ass, but definitely not alone :-( I first apologize and second respectfully ask that we be careful about what we say regarding staff/personal matters as they very quickly become none of our business. Might be worth noting that while Australia may not be in Asia, it is Pacific. Of the 5 Executive Council members, 1 is "Anglo-Saxon". 20% of APNIC membership is from Pacific nations. Where's the problem? Adam ------- APNIC Headquarters Relocation Around first quarter 1997, APNIC began to investigate what would be required to hire additional staff for the APNIC office in Japan. After lengthy consultations with various organizations, it was established that the question of whether APNIC needed to pay tax in Japan was somewhat indeterminate. Specifically, according to two of three accountancy firms, APNIC should pay taxes, while the third indicated exactly the opposite. After significant discussion, it was decided to evaluate the costs of doing business in Japan vis-$B/(Jvis doing business in other Asia or Pacific Rim locations. Location Survey APNIC obtained preliminary information on the costs of living and costs of doing business from various sources including newspapers, magazines, and the World Wide Web. Based on the preliminary data gathered, APNIC obtained more detailed information for the following cities: Auckland, New Zealand Brisbane, Australia Hong Kong Jakarta, Indonesia Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Melbourne, Australia Singapore Sydney, Australia Tokyo, Japan Based on cost-of-living surveys done by CRG, and taxation and other business related costs provided by KPMG Peat Marwick and Arthur Andersen, and given the fact that APNIC membership fees are considered non-taxable income in Australia, the Secretariat determined that the cost of doing business would be lowest in Brisbane, Australia. Office Search After the Executive Council decided on Brisbane, Australia as the new location for APNIC$B%f(Js headquarters, the search for the actual office space was initiated. After consultation with individuals in Brisbane, including local service providers, KPMG Peat Marwick, and the Queensland government, APNIC made use of the real estate agency of Jones Lang Wooten, a large commercial properties agency. The constraints APNIC placed on the new office were: 1. Less than US $2500 per month (including outgoings) 2. Large enough to support significant staff growth over the next few years 3. Convenient access After reviewing several properties, APNIC entered into a five-year lease agreement for property at 33 Park Road, Milton. Fit out of the office space is scheduled to occur during February with occupancy slated for the beginning of March. Re-incorporation As a function of relocating to Australia, APNIC, Ltd. has become re- incorporated in Australia. The new incorporation of APNIC, now APNIC Pty Ltd., follows the same general structure of APNIC, Ltd. in the Seychelles, modifying the Memorandum and Articles of Association only in those areas in which either the existing articles did not make sense (e.g., making APNIC, Ltd. be subject to Seychelles law) or where concepts in Seychelles law did not apply in Australia (e.g., "bearer shares" which do not exist in Australia). APNIC expects to migrate all existing members to the new corporate structure by the end of second quarter 1998. The relocation of APNIC to Brisbane, Australia is expected to be completed by that time as well. At 1:20 PM 98.2.27, laina@singnet.com.sg wrote: > I too would like to add my appreciation for what David, Kyoko and Yoshiko >have done for > APNIC. I think it is worth mention. > > I am however particularly concerned about continuity for APNIC, whether >exisitng staff are > being taken care of, is the EC consulting directly with the staff to see >what their concerns > are etc. I am one of those who am not totally convinced that the decision >to move to > Australia was a wise one. There are many other places in Asia which could >also have been > considered. Also I am under the impression that the fact that both >Yoshiko and Kyoko have a > family was not considered carefully. Unlike some of us that can move >quickly, others have to > consider spouse's jobs, children etc.not to mention whether they will get >a visa. I am > concerned that a five year lease in Australia was signed without looking >at these other > factors... > > I think APNIC may be better off loosing some money over breaking the five >year lease, then > loosing its valuable staff and deal with unneccesary hassles such as >importation taxes, > taxes, limitation to having other Asians on staff etc. A decision such as >this should be > considered very carefully, and there are PEOPLE involved, and let's not >forget it.Their > feeleings are important. I got the impression during APRICOT that nobody >cared to consutl > with Kyoko or Yoshiko on the future of APNIC. > > Also APNIC is a regional body, and we should strive to have Asians >involved in it as well, > as part of the empowerment of this region. Having it in Australia may >make it more > Anglo-Saxon based only...another consideration to keep in mind. > > Kudos again to David and his team...BUT while David may be dying to leave >let's not loose > his team as well, especially if they leave not of their own choice but >out of circumstances. > > Laina RG > > --- On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:06:03 +0800 (SGT) Yoshihiro Obata > > wrote: > > Although there is still a little hope that Ms. Chong and Ms. Day remain > in > APNIC, I think I will be very regretful if I miss a chance to show my > gratitude. I already regret that we did not show our appreciation in > the > last APNIC meeting in Manila. > > I feel very sad that Randy is leaving APNIC but I think his decision > will > open a door for his great future and release him from the pressures to > be > the Director General of APNIC. Anyway, I am sure we will remain in the > same business and have many chances to see each other and discuss > various > issues of Internet. > > I think it will not be enough to repeat my appreciation and say "so > long, > farewell, a bientot "("sayounara, mata auhimade" in Japanese). > > Yoshihiro Obata > > Yoshihiro OBATA (yo-obata@kdd.co.jp) > Manager, Internet Business, Global Multimedia Business Dept. > Kokusai Denshin Denwa (KDD) Co., Ltd., Japan > Phone +81-3-3347-6081, Fax +81-3-3347-5690 > > -----------------End of Original Message----------------- > > ------------------------------------- > Name: Laina Raveendran Greene > E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg > Date: 2/27/98 > Time: 1:20:59 PM > > This message was sent by Chameleon > ------------------------------------- > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | > | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ -----------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------------------- Name: Laina Raveendran Greene E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg Date: 2/27/98 Time: 4:48:49 PM This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sat Feb 28 00:08:05 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA00636 for apple-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:08:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (ip8.dialup.tokyo.jp.psi.net [154.33.254.8]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA00373; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 23:59:44 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199802271459.XAA00373@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 23:50:46 +0800 To: laina@singnet.com.sg From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: RE: APNIC update Cc: apnic-talk@apnic.net, apple@apnic.net, apng-all@apng.org, Yoshihiro Obata In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Sigh. One of the most personally frustrating aspects of trying to run APNIC, and one of the reasons I decided to resign, is that despite requesting, pleading, even begging (in large capital letters with lots of exclamation points), for input on APNIC related decisions, the only input I generally receive is criticism AFTER THE FACT primarily by non-members as exemplified by the note included below. I thought long and hard about simply ignoring the note below as I had addressed much of this in the APNIC meeting, however I decided it is important that I state for the record for those who did not attend that: a) I attempted to keep the APNIC Secretariat staff informed at all times during the evaluation of new locations for APNIC, requesting their input on numerous occasions, and weighing that input in the context of what they desired, what I felt was best for the APNIC Secretariat, and what I felt was best for the APNIC members, both in the short term and the long term. In some cases, they didn't want to be asked. In other cases, they provided valuable input. It may be that they did not feel their input was considered, but in all honesty, I have trouble understanding this feeling. In the end however, the final recommendation was my responsibility and I made that decision. b) the final decision to relocate APNIC's secretariat to Brisbane, Australia was made by the APNIC Executive Council who represented the APNIC membership, in keeping with the structure of APNIC. My role was to recommend the location I felt most appropriate for the Secretariat. I felt (and still feel) Brisbane best meets the APNIC secretariat's requirements. c) my recommendation for Brisbane, Australia was made not on a whim or on personal preference (my personal preference was elsewhere), but rather on a 9+ month evaluation of cost-of-living, cost-of-doing-business (including taxation, utilities, communications, facilities, etc.), quality of life for the APNIC secretariat's staff, economic and political stability of the countries in question, and the existance of a robust Internet community. Belying my own cultural and personal biases, explicitly not part of my decision making process were political and/or "racial" concerns. d) the final arbiter of _ANY_ decision within any part of APNIC is the membership. They can, at any time, recind or overturn ANY decision made by the Executive Council, which in turn would result in the Secretariat changing course. If the membership feels the Executive Council's acceptance of my recommendation was inappropriate, they can override that decision either now or in the future. While I do not feel it appropriate to bring up the various aspects of APNIC's staff personal lives and the impact the relocation of APNIC's Secretariat will have, I will state that I was aware of their concerns and kept those concerns in mind when considering the Secretariat's final location. It is important to me that the APNIC Secretariat's staff are taken care of and I have done and will do whatever is necessary to insure they are not left out in the cold. I deeply resent the implication that I am unconcerned. Also, I am somewhat disturbed at the rumor-mongering and scare tactics evidenced in the note below. For the record, and as I presented in the APNIC meeting during my (apparently vain) attempt to dispell the many rumors that were flying around Manila, APNIC has had NO visas declined and all visas we have applied for should not, according to our immigration agent in Australia, present any significant problem. The visa for our Business Manager, Kyoko Day, will require a bit more work as many business managers exist in Australia and (as in all countries I am aware of) you have to demonstrate you won't be taking jobs from existing nationals, however our immigration agent has indicated that while it may require additional justification, he expects no particular difficulties in obtaining Kyoko's visa. With respect to Asian's getting visas, I have been told (unofficially, so I am guilty of propagating rumors as well) that it is actually easier right now to get visas for Asians as the Australian government is trying to repair "Pauline Hanson" damage -- as an aside, it is important to remember that Queensland (in particular) is heavily dependent on trade/tourism with Asia for its economic well being. While it is true Australia has relatively high import duties (22%) on computer equipment, these duties obviously only apply to computer equipment purchased outside of Australia and besides, computer purchases make up only about 2.5% of the total projected expenses for 1998. Finally, I find the attempt to bring "race politics" into a discussion over the location of APNIC's secretariat astonishing and extremely disappointing. APNIC is indeed a regional organization, covering a region that ALSO contains Australia, New Zealand, and the Pacific Island nations. The blatant and divisive appeal to "Asians" over "Anglo-Saxons" I find _extremely_ repulsive. The composition of the APNIC Executive Council, both before and after the decision for Brisbane, should probably be reviewed by those attempting to play the "race" card. APNIC is truly regional and exists, if it exists anywhere, on the Internet. 99.99% of all APNIC members have never even set foot in the APNIC Secretariat office in Tokyo, thus the physical location of the APNIC Secretariat is fundamentally _irrelevant_. The TRUE composition of APNIC is whatever its membership is -- the Secretariat is merely the operational arm that implements the membership's requirements. I have grown PARTICULARLY weary of the rumors, innuendoes, and damning with faint praise such as presented below. I have worked for 4+ years, generally 7 days a week/10-12 hours a day trying my best to build a low cost, open, transparent, and independent organization that simply hands out integers to service providers that need them. I am very well aware that the result in imperfect and that I am not by any stretch of the imagination a business person. As I mentioned in my closing remarks, to those who feel I have acted inappropriately, I wish to offer my most sincere apologies and hope my resignation and eventual replacement with a no doubt more qualified individual will make amends. However as opposed to others, I am uninterested in playing political games with APNIC as I do not feel it is an appropriate football (TLDs currently fill that role admirably :-)). In the end though, I feel it is the AP region Internet community, as represented by the APNIC membership, who has final say in this matter, not individuals with their own personal agendas. Regards, -drc -------- At 01:20 PM 2/27/98 +0000, laina@singnet.com.sg wrote: > >I too would like to add my appreciation for what David, Kyoko and Yoshiko have done for >APNIC. I think it is worth mention. > >I am however particularly concerned about continuity for APNIC, whether exisitng staff are >being taken care of, is the EC consulting directly with the staff to see what their concerns >are etc. I am one of those who am not totally convinced that the decision to move to >Australia was a wise one. There are many other places in Asia which could also have been >considered. Also I am under the impression that the fact that both Yoshiko and Kyoko have a >family was not considered carefully. Unlike some of us that can move quickly, others have to >consider spouse's jobs, children etc.not to mention whether they will get a visa. I am >concerned that a five year lease in Australia was signed without looking at these other >factors... > >I think APNIC may be better off loosing some money over breaking the five year lease, then >loosing its valuable staff and deal with unneccesary hassles such as importation taxes, >taxes, limitation to having other Asians on staff etc. A decision such as this should be >considered very carefully, and there are PEOPLE involved, and let's not forget it.Their >feeleings are important. I got the impression during APRICOT that nobody cared to consutl >with Kyoko or Yoshiko on the future of APNIC. > >Also APNIC is a regional body, and we should strive to have Asians involved in it as well, >as part of the empowerment of this region. Having it in Australia may make it more >Anglo-Saxon based only...another consideration to keep in mind. > >Kudos again to David and his team...BUT while David may be dying to leave let's not loose >his team as well, especially if they leave not of their own choice but out of circumstances. > >Laina RG > >--- On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:06:03 +0800 (SGT) Yoshihiro Obata >wrote: > >Although there is still a little hope that Ms. Chong and Ms. Day remain >in >APNIC, I think I will be very regretful if I miss a chance to show my >gratitude. I already regret that we did not show our appreciation in >the >last APNIC meeting in Manila. > >I feel very sad that Randy is leaving APNIC but I think his decision >will >open a door for his great future and release him from the pressures to >be >the Director General of APNIC. Anyway, I am sure we will remain in the >same business and have many chances to see each other and discuss >various >issues of Internet. > >I think it will not be enough to repeat my appreciation and say "so >long, >farewell, a bientot "("sayounara, mata auhimade" in Japanese). > >Yoshihiro Obata > >Yoshihiro OBATA (yo-obata@kdd.co.jp) >Manager, Internet Business, Global Multimedia Business Dept. >Kokusai Denshin Denwa (KDD) Co., Ltd., Japan >Phone +81-3-3347-6081, Fax +81-3-3347-5690 > >-----------------End of Original Message----------------- > >------------------------------------- >Name: Laina Raveendran Greene >E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg >Date: 2/27/98 >Time: 1:20:59 PM > >This message was sent by Chameleon >------------------------------------- > >_________________________________________________________________________ >| To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net | >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ > ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sat Feb 28 00:09:07 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA00672 for apple-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:09:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (ip8.dialup.tokyo.jp.psi.net [154.33.254.8]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id AAA00608; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:07:12 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199802271507.AAA00608@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 23:58:11 +0800 To: laina@singnet.com.sg From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: RE: APNIC update Cc: laina@singnet.com.sg, apnic-talk@apnic.net, apple@apnic.net, apng-all@apng.org, Yoshihiro Obata , Adam Peake In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Laina, I might humbly suggest you don't know what you're talking about, either about Kyoko's visa or the immigration situation in Australia. However, your concern is noted and the damage you have done my reputation globally is duly appreciated. Regards, -drc -------- At 04:48 PM 2/27/98 +0000, laina@singnet.com.sg wrote: > >Yes, Kyoko is planning to go as she has to if she was to remain with >APNIC. Question is whether she will in fact get a visa. It is not easy for >Asians to get visas to Australia. They have very strcit requirements, and >recent outbursts by some politicians in Australia that there are too many >Asians in Australia certainly do not help either. Also, Kyoko has a >daughter and her daughter may not get a visa either. > >Then there is Yoshiko..why has she decided not to come..forced by >circumstances..??? > >Adam,, all I am saying is have these human factors been considered. If >they still want to go to Australia, perhaps APNIC should make provisions >to get these staff members other jobs so they won't be left in the slump. >Kyoko's uncertain situation should be given more sensitivity over..she >does have a teenage daughter which involves other issues. Sure, it may not >be the "business" of everyone, but I want it to be someone's business. >Please let is not be a "its not my business" forum and leave good people >stranded. > >As for the issue over Anglo-Saxons, yes Pacific is part of APNIC..and yes >we do have many others in the EC...I was referring to Australian work >permit laws and immigration policies, that itself would mean a more >Anglo-Saxon staffing. > >Laina RG > > >--- On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:39:32 +0900 Adam Peake >wrote: > >I was under the impression that Kyoko planned to move to Brisbane? > > >As one not completely innocent of involvement with earlier rumors, >(for which I feel a complete ass, but definitely not alone :-( >I first apologize and second respectfully ask that we be careful about >what we say regarding staff/personal matters as they very quickly >become none of our business. > >Might be worth noting that while Australia may not be in Asia, it >is Pacific. Of the 5 Executive Council members, 1 is "Anglo-Saxon". >20% of APNIC membership is from Pacific nations. Where's the >problem? > >Adam > >------- > >APNIC Headquarters Relocation > >Around first quarter 1997, APNIC began to investigate what would be >required to hire additional staff for the APNIC office in Japan. After >lengthy consultations with various organizations, it was established >that the question of whether APNIC needed to pay tax in Japan was >somewhat indeterminate. Specifically, according to two of three >accountancy firms, APNIC should pay taxes, while the third indicated >exactly the opposite. After significant discussion, it was decided to >evaluate the costs of doing business in Japan vis-$B/(Jvis doing business >in other Asia or Pacific Rim locations. > >Location Survey > >APNIC obtained preliminary information on the costs of living and costs >of doing business from various sources including newspapers, magazines, >and the World Wide Web. Based on the preliminary data gathered, APNIC >obtained more detailed information for the following cities: > > Auckland, New Zealand > Brisbane, Australia > Hong Kong > Jakarta, Indonesia > Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia > Melbourne, Australia > Singapore > Sydney, Australia > Tokyo, Japan > >Based on cost-of-living surveys done by CRG, and taxation and other >business related costs provided by KPMG Peat Marwick and Arthur >Andersen, and given the fact that APNIC membership fees are considered >non-taxable income in Australia, the Secretariat determined that the >cost of doing business would be lowest in Brisbane, Australia. > >Office Search > >After the Executive Council decided on Brisbane, Australia as the new >location for APNIC$B%f(Js headquarters, the search for the actual office >space was initiated. After consultation with individuals in Brisbane, >including local service providers, KPMG Peat Marwick, and the >Queensland government, APNIC made use of the real estate agency of >Jones Lang Wooten, a large commercial properties agency. The >constraints APNIC placed on the new office were: > > 1. Less than US $2500 per month (including outgoings) > 2. Large enough to support significant staff growth over the next few > years > 3. Convenient access > >After reviewing several properties, APNIC entered into a five-year >lease agreement for property at 33 Park Road, Milton. Fit out of the >office space is scheduled to occur during February with occupancy >slated for the beginning of March. > >Re-incorporation > >As a function of relocating to Australia, APNIC, Ltd. has become re- >incorporated in Australia. The new incorporation of APNIC, now APNIC >Pty Ltd., follows the same general structure of APNIC, Ltd. in the >Seychelles, modifying the Memorandum and Articles of Association only >in those areas in which either the existing articles did not make sense >(e.g., making APNIC, Ltd. be subject to Seychelles law) or where >concepts in Seychelles law did not apply in Australia (e.g., "bearer >shares" which do not exist in Australia). > >APNIC expects to migrate all existing members to the new corporate >structure by the end of second quarter 1998. The relocation of APNIC >to Brisbane, Australia is expected to be completed by that time as >well. > > >At 1:20 PM 98.2.27, laina@singnet.com.sg wrote: >> I too would like to add my appreciation for what David, Kyoko and Yoshiko >>have done for >> APNIC. I think it is worth mention. >> >> I am however particularly concerned about continuity for APNIC, whether >>exisitng staff are >> being taken care of, is the EC consulting directly with the staff to see >>what their concerns >> are etc. I am one of those who am not totally convinced that the decision >>to move to >> Australia was a wise one. There are many other places in Asia which could >>also have been >> considered. Also I am under the impression that the fact that both >>Yoshiko and Kyoko have a >> family was not considered carefully. Unlike some of us that can move >>quickly, others have to >> consider spouse's jobs, children etc.not to mention whether they will get >>a visa. I am >> concerned that a five year lease in Australia was signed without looking >>at these other >> factors... >> >> I think APNIC may be better off loosing some money over breaking the five >>year lease, then >> loosing its valuable staff and deal with unneccesary hassles such as >>importation taxes, >> taxes, limitation to having other Asians on staff etc. A decision such as >>this should be >> considered very carefully, and there are PEOPLE involved, and let's not >>forget it.Their >> feeleings are important. I got the impression during APRICOT that nobody >>cared to consutl >> with Kyoko or Yoshiko on the future of APNIC. >> >> Also APNIC is a regional body, and we should strive to have Asians >>involved in it as well, >> as part of the empowerment of this region. Having it in Australia may >>make it more >> Anglo-Saxon based only...another consideration to keep in mind. >> >> Kudos again to David and his team...BUT while David may be dying to leave >>let's not loose >> his team as well, especially if they leave not of their own choice but >>out of circumstances. >> >> Laina RG >> >> --- On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:06:03 +0800 (SGT) Yoshihiro Obata >> >> wrote: >> >> Although there is still a little hope that Ms. Chong and Ms. Day remain >> in >> APNIC, I think I will be very regretful if I miss a chance to show my >> gratitude. I already regret that we did not show our appreciation in >> the >> last APNIC meeting in Manila. >> >> I feel very sad that Randy is leaving APNIC but I think his decision >> will >> open a door for his great future and release him from the pressures to >> be >> the Director General of APNIC. Anyway, I am sure we will remain in the >> same business and have many chances to see each other and discuss >> various >> issues of Internet. >> >> I think it will not be enough to repeat my appreciation and say "so >> long, >> farewell, a bientot "("sayounara, mata auhimade" in Japanese). >> >> Yoshihiro Obata >> >> Yoshihiro OBATA (yo-obata@kdd.co.jp) >> Manager, Internet Business, Global Multimedia Business Dept. >> Kokusai Denshin Denwa (KDD) Co., Ltd., Japan >> Phone +81-3-3347-6081, Fax +81-3-3347-5690 >> >> -----------------End of Original Message----------------- >> >> ------------------------------------- >> Name: Laina Raveendran Greene >> E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg >> Date: 2/27/98 >> Time: 1:20:59 PM >> >> This message was sent by Chameleon >> ------------------------------------- >> >> ___________________________________________________________________________ >> | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | >> | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >| To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net | >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ > >-----------------End of Original Message----------------- > >------------------------------------- >Name: Laina Raveendran Greene >E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg >Date: 2/27/98 >Time: 4:48:49 PM > >This message was sent by Chameleon >------------------------------------- > >_________________________________________________________________________ >| To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net | >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ > ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sat Feb 28 11:42:38 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA08028 for apple-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:42:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from copper.singnet.com.sg (copper.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA08021; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:42:33 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from laina (ts900-7217.singnet.com.sg [165.21.165.101]) by copper.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25508; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:45:27 +0800 (SGT) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 10:31:47 Subject: RE: APNIC update To: "David R. Conrad" , Geoff Huston Cc: laina@singnet.com.sg, apnic-talk@apnic.net, apple@apnic.net, apng-all@apng.org X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Dear Geoff, I assume that the individual you refer to is me, since you also mentioned a "she". I do sincerely apologise for having chosen so public a forum, but I was very moved by the situation and was geting desperate that nothing was being done. To say I have "little basic respect" fo David and his staff, I think was stretching it too far. I do have great respect for David for having put so much of his life into this region and helping us get a headstart, and if I did not I would not have worked closely with him such as getting sponsors for APRICOT, publicising it, organising sessions,etc. I also have great respect for his empowering the region, etc. I also have respect for David, but I do not to expect him to be a superhuman...i.e. I would not expect him to be a great engineer, great businessman, great manager, great leader, etc etc.. This is a mistake most people. Likewise, it was very the respect I had for his staff too that lead me to make my comments. I do apologise that the forum I raised it may not have been appropriate, but I was really trying to get some attention to their problems. Maybe it is because I too am a women who has worked in a man's world and know that sometimes unless you scream nobody listens, and maybe it is because I am Asian working in a predominantly Anglo-Saxon world, and maybe etc... but it was certainly not because of lack of respect for David. I am sorry that David has taken it so personally and so have you. The mail was meant as a wake-up call to get people sensitive to human issues as we deal with the APNIC future issues. APNIC was largely David, but his staff did have a large role to play too. I am glad that David has taken efforts to help them, but my e-mail was not to criticise his management style, but to highlight issues which everyone...not just David may feel uncomfortable dealing with. Issues such as this are never comfortable, and I will take this off to apnic list only. I hope I have wakened people to think about these isues at least, and then the right people to do somehting about it... I am in fact confident that the EC and David will do something once people are awakened to the sensitivity of the issues...I just did not want everyone sweeping it under the carpet saying "it is none of our business"/ Apologies if it hurt David's reputation. It was not intended for that..it was intended to help Kyoko and Yoshiko..but I am willing to admit I may have done it the wrong way. Once again, I do not flippantly say but mean it when I say "David has done great things for APNIC and for the region" and he has put together a good staff base, which we also do not want to loose. Thanks. Laina RG --- On Sat, 28 Feb 1998 06:48:25 +1100 Geoff Huston wrote: David, Thanks for your clarification. I am saddened that it was so necessary to do so, and saddened that an individual feels it so important to attack you and your staff and APNIC's considerable achievements over the past few years. I am astonished that the individual has so little basic respect for you and your staff that she has chosen this public path to undermine APNIC. Geoff At 11:50 PM 2/27/98 +0800, David R. Conrad wrote: >Sigh. > >One of the most personally frustrating aspects of trying to run APNIC, and >one of the reasons I decided to resign, is that despite requesting, >pleading, even begging (in large capital letters with lots of exclamation >points), for input on APNIC related decisions, the only input I generally >receive is criticism AFTER THE FACT primarily by non-members as exemplified >by the note included below. > >I thought long and hard about simply ignoring the note below as I had >addressed much of this in the APNIC meeting, however I decided it is >important that I state for the record for those who did not attend that: > >a) I attempted to keep the APNIC Secretariat staff informed at all times >during the evaluation of new locations for APNIC, requesting their input on >numerous occasions, and weighing that input in the context of what they >desired, what I felt was best for the APNIC Secretariat, and what I felt >was best for the APNIC members, both in the short term and the long term. >In some cases, they didn't want to be asked. In other cases, they provided >valuable input. It may be that they did not feel their input was >considered, but in all honesty, I have trouble understanding this feeling. >In the end however, the final recommendation was my responsibility and I >made that decision. > >b) the final decision to relocate APNIC's secretariat to Brisbane, >Australia was made by the APNIC Executive Council who represented the APNIC >membership, in keeping with the structure of APNIC. My role was to >recommend the location I felt most appropriate for the Secretariat. I felt >(and still feel) Brisbane best meets the APNIC secretariat's requirements. > >c) my recommendation for Brisbane, Australia was made not on a whim or on >personal preference (my personal preference was elsewhere), but rather on a >9+ month evaluation of cost-of-living, cost-of-doing-business (including >taxation, utilities, communications, facilities, etc.), quality of life for >the APNIC secretariat's staff, economic and political stability of the >countries in question, and the existance of a robust Internet community. >Belying my own cultural and personal biases, explicitly not part of my >decision making process were political and/or "racial" concerns. > >d) the final arbiter of _ANY_ decision within any part of APNIC is the >membership. They can, at any time, recind or overturn ANY decision made by >the Executive Council, which in turn would result in the Secretariat >changing course. If the membership feels the Executive Council's >acceptance of my recommendation was inappropriate, they can override that >decision either now or in the future. > >While I do not feel it appropriate to bring up the various aspects of >APNIC's staff personal lives and the impact the relocation of APNIC's >Secretariat will have, I will state that I was aware of their concerns and >kept those concerns in mind when considering the Secretariat's final >location. It is important to me that the APNIC Secretariat's staff are >taken care of and I have done and will do whatever is necessary to insure >they are not left out in the cold. I deeply resent the implication that I >am unconcerned. > >Also, I am somewhat disturbed at the rumor-mongering and scare tactics >evidenced in the note below. For the record, and as I presented in the >APNIC meeting during my (apparently vain) attempt to dispell the many >rumors that were flying around Manila, APNIC has had NO visas declined and >all visas we have applied for should not, according to our immigration >agent in Australia, present any significant problem. The visa for our >Business Manager, Kyoko Day, will require a bit more work as many business >managers exist in Australia and (as in all countries I am aware of) you >have to demonstrate you won't be taking jobs from existing nationals, >however our immigration agent has indicated that while it may require >additional justification, he expects no particular difficulties in >obtaining Kyoko's visa. > >With respect to Asian's getting visas, I have been told (unofficially, so I >am guilty of propagating rumors as well) that it is actually easier right >now to get visas for Asians as the Australian government is trying to >repair "Pauline Hanson" damage -- as an aside, it is important to remember >that Queensland (in particular) is heavily dependent on trade/tourism with >Asia for its economic well being. > >While it is true Australia has relatively high import duties (22%) on >computer equipment, these duties obviously only apply to computer equipment >purchased outside of Australia and besides, computer purchases make up only >about 2.5% of the total projected expenses for 1998. > >Finally, I find the attempt to bring "race politics" into a discussion over >the location of APNIC's secretariat astonishing and extremely >disappointing. APNIC is indeed a regional organization, covering a region >that ALSO contains Australia, New Zealand, and the Pacific Island nations. >The blatant and divisive appeal to "Asians" over "Anglo-Saxons" I find >_extremely_ repulsive. The composition of the APNIC Executive Council, >both before and after the decision for Brisbane, should probably be >reviewed by those attempting to play the "race" card. > >APNIC is truly regional and exists, if it exists anywhere, on the Internet. > 99.99% of all APNIC members have never even set foot in the APNIC >Secretariat office in Tokyo, thus the physical location of the APNIC >Secretariat is fundamentally _irrelevant_. The TRUE composition of APNIC >is whatever its membership is -- the Secretariat is merely the operational >arm that implements the membership's requirements. > >I have grown PARTICULARLY weary of the rumors, innuendoes, and damning with >faint praise such as presented below. I have worked for 4+ years, >generally 7 days a week/10-12 hours a day trying my best to build a low >cost, open, transparent, and independent organization that simply hands out >integers to service providers that need them. I am very well aware that >the result in imperfect and that I am not by any stretch of the imagination >a business person. As I mentioned in my closing remarks, to those who feel >I have acted inappropriately, I wish to offer my most sincere apologies and >hope my resignation and eventual replacement with a no doubt more qualified >individual will make amends. > >However as opposed to others, I am uninterested in playing political games >with APNIC as I do not feel it is an appropriate football (TLDs currently >fill that role admirably :-)). In the end though, I feel it is the AP >region Internet community, as represented by the APNIC membership, who has >final say in this matter, not individuals with their own personal agendas. > >Regards, >-drc >-------- > >At 01:20 PM 2/27/98 +0000, laina@singnet.com.sg wrote: >> >>I too would like to add my appreciation for what David, Kyoko and Yoshiko >have done for >>APNIC. I think it is worth mention. >> >>I am however particularly concerned about continuity for APNIC, whether >exisitng staff are >>being taken care of, is the EC consulting directly with the staff to see >what their concerns >>are etc. I am one of those who am not totally convinced that the decision >to move to > >>Australia was a wise one. There are many other places in Asia which could >also have been >>considered. Also I am under the impression that the fact that both Yoshiko >and Kyoko have a >>family was not considered carefully. Unlike some of us that can move >quickly, others have to >>consider spouse's jobs, children etc.not to mention whether they will get >a visa. I am >>concerned that a five year lease in Australia was signed without looking >at these other >>factors... >> >>I think APNIC may be better off loosing some money over breaking the five >year lease, then >>loosing its valuable staff and deal with unneccesary hassles such as >importation taxes, >>taxes, limitation to having other Asians on staff etc. A decision such as >this should be >>considered very carefully, and there are PEOPLE involved, and let's not >forget it.Their >>feeleings are important. I got the impression during APRICOT that nobody >cared to consutl >>with Kyoko or Yoshiko on the future of APNIC. >> >>Also APNIC is a regional body, and we should strive to have Asians >involved in it as well, >>as part of the empowerment of this region. Having it in Australia may make >it more >>Anglo-Saxon based only...another consideration to keep in mind. >> >>Kudos again to David and his team...BUT while David may be dying to leave >let's not loose >>his team as well, especially if they leave not of their own choice but out >of circumstances. >> >>Laina RG >> _________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ -----------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------------------- Name: Laina Raveendran Greene E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg Date: 2/28/98 Time: 10:31:47 AM This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sat Feb 28 21:57:27 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id VAA15723 for apple-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:57:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from geocities.com (mail6.geocities.com [209.1.224.26]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id VAA15717 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:57:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from yapcs-r2 (yapcs-r2.iscs.nus.sg [137.132.85.230]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA04360 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 05:00:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34F80A7F.46F42970@geocities.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:00:47 +0800 From: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Organization: VLSM-TJT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.30 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: MILIS APPLE Subject: confused as ever .... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hello: - Would someone please convince me that "regional registries" are the most effective/efficient way ? Are there any other options? Any URLs that have this information ? - What has apple to do with this issue ? tabe, -- Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim - CEO VLSM-TJT - http://www.vlsm.org/rms46 Clash between facts&theories may be a proof of progress(Feyerabend) ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | --------------------------------------------------------------------------