From owner-apnic-talk Wed May 6 12:04:09 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id MAA09303 for apnic-talk-out; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:04:09 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (ip24.dialup.tokyo.jp.psi.net [154.33.254.24]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA09296 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:04:01 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805060304.MAA09296@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 11:44:57 +0800 To: apnic-talk@apnic.net From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Various presentations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hi, As part of the transition process, I have put some of the presentations I have written for APNIC into ftp://ftp.apnic.net/apnic/misc/presentations. They are MS Powerpoint (probably a mix of versions). Feel free to use them if you like. Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Thu May 7 11:29:30 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA18225 for apnic-talk-out; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:29:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from geocities.com (mail4.geocities.com [209.1.224.24]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA18214 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:29:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from yapcs-r2 (yapcs-r2.iscs.nus.sg [137.132.85.230]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA26609; Wed, 6 May 1998 19:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35511C93.69B9906A@geocities.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 10:30:30 +0800 From: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Organization: VLSM-TJT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.30 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apnic-talk@apnic.net CC: Milis Virtual IDNIC Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Various presentations References: <199805060304.MAA09296@teckla.apnic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hello: Thank you very much for your information. David R. Conrad wrote: > As part of the transition process, I have put some of the > presentations I have written for APNIC into > ftp://ftp.apnic.net/apnic/misc/presentations. Unfortunately, the link to that APNIC ftp-server is very sloow (and that was from MAE-East, the center of the universe :-). I will try it again later. > They are MS Powerpoint (probably a mix of versions). Perhaps, it would be nice to provide either the ".zip" version of those files or an URL to an gnunzip.exe for WIN95. Anyway, I am interested to find out if those files include a justification for APNIC itself. The scientific logic is something like this: "If `a' is a part of `B', whereas `C' is a superset of `B', the `a' could be a part of `C' too." Therefore, how about to desolve APNIC and merge it with ARIN or "whatever it will be called"? Obviously, not in the next 1 - 2 weeks from now. Perhaps within 2 - 5 years? This is just from a practical engineering point of view, whereas from a sociologist perspective, it would be different :-). tabe, -- Rahmat M.Samik-Ibrahim VLSM-TJT http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6825 -My clock display is QUALITATIVE:more sense,less positivist(m/tic)- * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Thu May 7 23:09:15 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id XAA02583 for apnic-talk-out; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:09:15 +0900 (JST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id XAA02409 for apnic-announce-out; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:00:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA02400 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:00:21 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805071400.XAA02400@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 22:44:47 +0800 To: apnic-announce@apnic.net From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] [apnic-announce] Drafts of the new APNIC Legal Documents available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: apnic-talk@apnic.net Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk [Note "reply-to:" field] Hi, The drafts for the legal documents that define APNIC Pty Ltd, the Australian company, are available for comment. Please review the documents and make whatever comments you feel appropriate by May 22, 1998 either to the APNIC-TALK list or if you would prefer making comments in private, to hostmaster@apnic.net. Regards, -drc * APNIC-ANNOUNCE: Announcements concerning APNIC * * To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe" to apnic-announce-request@apnic.net * * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 8 15:55:49 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA27314 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:55:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from geocities.com (mail2.geocities.com [209.1.224.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA27310 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:55:43 +0900 (JST) Received: from yapcs-r2 (yapcs-r2.iscs.nus.sg [137.132.85.230]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA18510 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <355258BC.30893D74@geocities.com> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 09:15:45 +0800 From: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Organization: VLSM-TJT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.30 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apnic-talk@apnic.net Subject: [apnic-talk] Where in APNIC draft is Carmen Sandiego? References: <199805071400.XAA02400@teckla.apnic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk David R. Conrad wrote: > The drafts for the legal documents that define APNIC Pty Ltd, the > Australian company, are available for comment. where ? archive/, dbase/, doc/, drafts/, info/, meetings/, misc/ ? tabegato, -- Rahmat M.Samik-Ibrahim VLSM-TJT http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6825 -My clock display is QUALITATIVE:more sense,less positivist(m/tic)- * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 8 16:49:11 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id QAA28487 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:49:11 +0900 (JST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id QAA28294 for apnic-announce-out; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:43:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA28287 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:43:41 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805080743.QAA28287@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 16:27:59 +0800 To: apnic-announce@apnic.net From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] [apnic-announce] Oops (Re: Drafts of the new APNIC Legal Documents available) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: apnic-talk@apnic.net Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk [Note "reply-to:" field] Hi, Apologies, it has been pointed out I did not indicate where the documents were available. Currently, you can access the files at: http://www.apnic.net/legal/legal.html (this is also available off the APNIC home page in the "News" section). If you do not have web access and wish to review the documents, please send mail to hostmaster@apnic.net and we will provide you with the documents in most any format. Regards, -drc * APNIC-ANNOUNCE: Announcements concerning APNIC * * To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe" to apnic-announce-request@apnic.net * * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 8 21:17:45 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id VAA06692 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:17:45 +0900 (JST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id VAA06470 for apnic-announce-out; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:13:00 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA06462 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:12:53 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805081212.VAA06462@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 20:56:30 +0800 To: apnic-announce@apnic.net From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] [apnic-announce] Official APNIC Director General position posting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_894603390==_" Reply-To: apnic-talk@apnic.net Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk [Note "reply-to:" field] --=====================_894603390==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, Enclosed is the official APNIC Director General position posting. Feel free to recirculate where ever you feel appropriate. I _STRONGLY_ encourage anyone who has interest in the position to apply, regardless of whether or not you feel you meet all the requirements for the position. Really. If you are unable to read the (rich text format) attachment enclosed with this message, please contact me directly and I will see that you get a copy you can read one way or another. I will be putting this announcement up on the APNIC web page as soon as I figure out to convert it into reasonable HTML (sigh. feel free to offer suggestions... :-)). 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Conrad}{\creatim\yr1998\mo5\dy8\hr17\min30}{\revtim\yr1998\mo5\dy8\hr17\min30}{\printim\yr1998\mo5\dy7\hr9\min2}{\version2}{\edmins0}{\nofpages4}{\nofwords836}{\nofchars4766}{\*\company KPMG}{\nofcharsws5852}{\vern71}} \paperw11900\paperh16840\margl1797\margr1701\margt1701\margb1134 \widowctrl\ftnbj\aenddoc\makebackup\lytprtmet\formshade\viewkind4\viewscale100\pgbrdrhead\pgbrdrfoot \fet0\sectd \binfsxn7\binsxn7\psz9\linex0\endnhere\sectdefaultcl {\*\pnseclvl1 \pnucrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxta .}}{\*\pnseclvl2\pnucltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxta .}}{\*\pnseclvl3\pndec\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxta .}}{\*\pnseclvl4\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl5 \pndec\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl6\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl7\pnlcrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl8\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang {\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl9\pnlcrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}\pard\plain \sa240\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid { \par }\pard \qc\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\b\fs28 APPLICATIONS SOUGHT FOR THE POSITION OF\line \line }{\b\fs36 DIRECTOR GENERAL\line }{\b\fs28 \line ASIA PACIFIC NETWORK INFORMATION CENTER (APNIC) \par }\pard \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright { \par }\trowd \trgaph80\trleft-1\trkeep \clvertalt\clbrdrt\brdrs\brdrw15 \clbrdrl\brdrs\brdrw15 \cltxlrtb \cellx578\clvertalt\clbrdrt\brdrs\brdrw15 \cltxlrtb \cellx2873\clvertalt\cltxlrtb \cellx7577\clvertalt\cltxlrtb \cellx7861\pard\plain \s35\qj\sl220\slmult0 \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\tqr\tx8505\adjustright \i\f4\fs18\cgrid {\b\i0\f16\fs40 \cell }\pard \s35\qj\sl220\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\tqr\tx8505\adjustright {\b\i0\f16\fs40 \cell \cell }\pard \s35\qj\sl220\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl \tqr\tx8505\pvpg\phpg\posx3285\posy2709\absw7258\dxfrtext180\dfrmtxtx180\dfrmtxty180\adjustright {\fs30 \cell }\pard\plain \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {\expnd-7\expndtw-35 \row }\trowd \trgaph80\trkeep \clvertalt\clbrdrl \brdrs\brdrw15 \cltxlrtb \cellx579\clvertalt\cltxlrtb \cellx7579\clvertalt\clshdng10000\cltxlrtb \cellx7863\pard\plain \s35\qj\sl220\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\tqr\tx8505\adjustright \i\f4\fs18\cgrid {\b\i0\f16\fs66 \cell }{\b\i0\f16\fs80\cf1 director general}{\i0\f16\fs72 \par }\pard\plain \s33\qj\fi-284\li335\sb120\sl260\slmult0\keepn\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright \b\f19\fs18\cgrid {\f17 z}{\tab }{\fs20 IT/Communications Industry}{ \par }\pard \s33\qj\fi-284\li335\sb20\sl260\slmult0\keepn\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright {\f17 z}{\tab }{\fs20 Package >US$90,000 Negotiable}{ \par }\pard \s33\qj\fi-284\li335\sb20\sl260\slmult0\keepn\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\pvpg\phpg\posx3285\posy2709\absw7258\dxfrtext180\dfrmtxtx180\dfrmtxty180\adjustright {\f17 z}{\tab }{\fs20 Location: Brisbane, Australia}{\expnd-7\expndtw-35 \cell }\pard\plain \fi-115\li115\sa240\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {\expnd-7\expndtw-35 \cell }\pard \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright {\expnd-7\expndtw-35 \row }\trowd \trgaph79\trleft1\trkeep \clvertalt\clbrdrl \brdrs\brdrw15 \cltxlrtb \cellx580\clvertalt\cltxlrtb \cellx7580\clvertalt\clshdng10000\cltxlrtb \cellx7864\pard\plain \s35\qj\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\tqr\tx8505\adjustright \i\f4\fs18\cgrid {\b\i0\fs24 \cell }\pard \s35\qj\ri153\sb240\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\tqr\tx8505\adjustright {\i0 The }{\b\i0 Asia Pacific Network Information Centre (APNIC)}{\i0 co\_ ordinates resource allocation for internet service providers across the Asia Pacific region. It is one of only 3}{\i0 \~}{\i0 organisations who perform these functions world\_wide.}{\i0\fs24 \cell }\pard\plain \sa240\sl260\slmult0 \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {\cell }\pard \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright {\expnd-7\expndtw-35 \row }\trowd \trgaph80\trkeep \clvertalt\cltxlrtb \cellx577\clvertalt\cltxlrtb \cellx7579\clvertalt\clshdng10000\cltxlrtb \cellx7863\pard\plain \s34\qj\sb140\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright \b\f4\fs16\cgrid {\b0\fs18 \cell }\pard \s34\qj\ri153\sb140\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright {\b0\fs18 APNIC\rquote s key objectives are to allocate and register internet resources; development of procedures and mechanisms to allocate internet resources to their community of members, and to respond to legislative and regulatory issues. APNIC is relocating their operations from Tokyo to Brisbane and is seeking to appoint a new Director General. \par }{\fs18 Reporting to the Executive Council }{\b0\fs18 the Director General will be responsible for managing the total operations including the development of strategy; raising awareness of the vital APNIC role; and representation to key industry bodies.}{ \b0\fs18 }{\b0\fs18 Frequent travel will be required. \par To succeed in this challenging role you will need to have experience in management, regulatory issues and development and implementation of strategy. An appropriate level of IT technical knowledge is required. Exper ience in the IT/telecommunications industry is mandatory. A second language in addition to English would be desirable. \par }\pard \s34\qj\ri153\sb140\sa100\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright {\b0\fs18 To find out more information regarding APNIC you may wish to visit their web site at: www.apnic.net}{\fs18 \cell }\pard\plain \sa240\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {\fs18 \cell }\pard \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright {\fs18 \row }\trowd \trgaph80\trkeep \clvertalt\cltxlrtb \cellx588\clvertalt\cltxlrtb \cellx2268\clvertalt\cltxlrtb \cellx7579 \clvertalt\clshdng10000\cltxlrtb \cellx7863\pard\plain \s30\sb940\sa100\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {\b\f18\fs10 \cell }\pard \s30\sb840\sa100\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright {\cell }\pard \s30\qj\ri153\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright {\b\fs18 Please apply in writing in confidence quoting reference number QH042 to MICHAEL HILLER, KPMG Management Consulting, GPO Box 422, BRISBANE QLD 4001. Fax\~\~61\~7\~3220\~ 0107. Applications close 25 May at 12noon Australian Eastern Standard Time. \par }\pard \s30\qj\ri153\sb100\sa100\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright {\i\fs18 Email: execrec.bne@mail.kpmg.com.au}{\cell }\pard \s30\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright {\expnd-7\expndtw-35 \cell }\pard\plain \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {\expnd-7\expndtw-35 \row }\trowd \trgaph79\trkeep \clvertalt\cltxlrtb \cellx567\clvertalt\clshdng10000\cltxlrtb \cellx2268\clvertalt\clshdng10000\cltxlrtb \cellx7581 \clvertalt\clshdng10000\cltxlrtb \cellx7864\pard\plain \s30\sb160\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {\fs12 \cell \cell \cell }\pard \s30\sb160\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright {\fs12\expnd-7\expndtw-35 \cell }\pard\plain \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\intbl\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {\fs12\expnd-7\expndtw-35 \row }\pard \sa240\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright { \par }\pard \sa240\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\b\f4 \page }{\b\f4 Background of APNIC \par }\pard \sa240\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\f4 APNIC is a not for profit organisation that co-ordinates resource allocation for Internet Service Providers across the Asian-Pacific region. It is one of 3 existing organisations worldwide which perform these tasks. More information about APNIC is loca ted at: \par \tab http://www.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997 \par The clients of APNIC are, in general, ISPs which operate within the Asia and Pacific Rim region. APNIC is currently in the process of relocating it's operations from Tokyo, Japan to Br isbane, Australia. The Director General position will be based in Brisbane. Regular travel will be required. \par }{\b\f4 Major duties and responsibilities of Director General \par }\pard\plain \s22\fi-709\li709\sa120\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {a.\tab To act as the Chief Executive Officer of APNIC Pty Ltd, having the authority common to that position as well as other powers delegated by the Executive Council or the APNIC Membership; \par }\pard \s22\fi-709\li709\sa120\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {b.\tab To act as the legal representative of APNIC and the corporation; \par c.\tab To act as an ex-officio member of the Executive Council; \par d.\tab To have responsibility for the general management, control of functions and affairs of APNIC subject to the provisions of the by-laws of APNIC and the direction of the Executive Council; \par e.\tab To execute all contracts, agreements and other instruments of the corporation which are authorised including affixing the Seal of the corporation; \par f.\tab To oversee the business administration of the APNIC on behalf of the Treasurer; \par g.\tab To be responsible to the Executive Council for the administrative and fiscal aspects of APNIC's activities; \par h.\tab To take all the actions required to ensure the economic use of APNIC's resources; \par i.\tab To have responsibility for the appointment and general management of all staff; \par j.\tab To report to the Executive Council on a regular basis and put forward proposals for resolution for the consideration of the Executive Council; \par k.\tab To devise and execute strategic policy in conjunction with and by the approval of the Executive Council; \par l.\tab To plan and coordinate all APNIC activities in conjunction with and by the approval of the Executive Council; \par m.\tab To represent APNIC }{& its members}{ with respect to all relevant Internet bodies; \par }\pard \s22\fi-709\li709\sa240\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {n.\tab To liaise with peer Regional Registries (currently RIPE and ARIN) and the IANA over strategy, policy and the operation of Regional Registries. \par }\pard\plain \sa240\sl260\slmult0\keepn\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {\b\f4 Key skills \par }\pard\plain \s22\fi-709\li709\sa120\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {*\tab Excellent leadership, communication, presentation and inter-personal skills; \par }\pard \s22\fi-709\li709\sa120\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {*\tab Proven business administrative skills in a business with income of over US\~$1,000,000; \par *\tab Proven personnel management skills leading a small team of technically oriented individuals; \par *\tab Good understanding of operational Internet issues, and in particular, those issues involving the Internet address allocation and assignment policies and procedures; \par *\tab Experience with current Internet allocation, assignment policies and procedures; \par *\tab Experience in dealing with regulatory issues and policy; \par *\tab Strategy development and implementation; \par *\tab Ability to travel, primarily in the Asia and Pacific Rim region, with occasional trips to the US and Europe; and \par }\pard \s22\fi-709\li709\sa240\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {*\tab Fl}{uent written and spoken English.}{ \par }\pard\plain \sa240\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {\b\f4 Desirable Skills \par }\pard\plain \s22\fi-709\li709\sa120\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {*\tab Asian language skills; \par }\pard \s22\fi-709\li709\sa120\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {*\tab Involvement in Asia Pacific Internet related organisations; \par *\tab Experience operating an Internet service provider; \par *\tab Experience obtaining resources from APNIC; \par *\tab Familiarity with Internet Engineering standards organisations such as the IETF; and \par }\pard \s22\fi-709\li709\sa240\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {*\tab Familiarity with Internet Operations organisa}{tions such as IEPG, NANOG, etc.}{ \par }\pard\plain \sa240\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {\b\f4 \page }{\b\f4 How to apply}{\b\f4 \par }\pard \sa240\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\f4 The recruitment process is being independently managed by \par }{\b\f4\fs28 KPMG, Brisbane \par }{\f4 to whom all correspondence should be addressed, faxed or emailed.}{\b\f4 \par }\pard\plain \s22\fi-709\li709\sa80\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {\fs12\cf2 {\field{\*\fldinst SYMBOL 110 \\f "Wingdings" \\s 6}{\fldrslt\f14\fs12}}}{\tab }{\b Mail}{ - send your application to: \par }\pard \s22\fi-709\li709\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\tab KPMG Management Consulting \par \tab Attention: Michael Hiller \par \tab GPO Box }{422}{ \par }\pard \s22\fi-709\li709\sa240\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\tab Brisbane Qld }{Australia}{ 4001 \par }\pard \s22\fi-709\li709\sa80\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\fs12\cf2 {\field{\*\fldinst SYMBOL 110 \\f "Wingdings" \\s 6}{\fldrslt\f14\fs12}}}{\tab }{\b Fax}{ - fax your application to: \par }\pard \s22\fi-709\li709\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\tab KPMG Management Consulting \par \tab Attention: Michael Hiller \par }\pard \s22\fi-709\li709\sa240\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\tab Facsimile number 61}{ }{7 3220 0107 \par }\pard \s22\fi-709\li709\sa80\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\fs12\cf2 {\field{\*\fldinst SYMBOL 110 \\f "Wingdings" \\s 6}{\fldrslt\f14\fs12}}}{\tab }{\b Email}{ - Email your application to: \par }\pard \s22\fi-709\li709\sa240\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\tab execrec.bne@mail.kpmg.com.au \par }\pard\plain \sa60\sl260\slmult0\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\tx284\tx567\tx1701\adjustright \lang3081\cgrid {Applications close 25 May at 12 noon Australian Eastern Standard Time}{ \par }} --=====================_894603390==_-- * APNIC-ANNOUNCE: Announcements concerning APNIC * * To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe" to apnic-announce-request@apnic.net * * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 9 18:52:16 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id SAA24816 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:52:16 +0900 (JST) Received: from geocities.com (mail1.geocities.com [209.1.224.29]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA24812 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:52:10 +0900 (JST) Received: from yapcs-r2 (yapcs-r2.iscs.nus.sg [137.132.85.230]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA26981 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 02:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3553C070.2A04D029@geocities.com> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 10:34:07 +0800 From: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Organization: VLSM-TJT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.30 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apnic-talk@apnic.net Subject: [apnic-talk] APNIC Director General: what is the catch? References: <199805081212.VAA06462@teckla.apnic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hello; David R. Conrad wrote: > Enclosed is the official APNIC Director General position posting. So, the position is still empty? This is not the first time I saw that announcement. Therefore, what is the catch? It seems, whether we like it or not, that APNIC is Randy and Randy is APNIC. > Feel free to recirculate where ever you feel appropriate. I did it last time. It seems that it did not work. > I _STRONGLY_ encourage anyone who has interest in the position > to apply, regardless of whether or not you feel you meet all > the requirements for the position. There are not many fellows that understand both the technical part and the policy/politic part of the issue. I am unfortunately understand both. As I will not nominate myself (and thank you for the big BOOBOO from behind), the closest Indonesian fellow that has popped from my mind is Mr. Sanjaya from IndoInternet. regards, -- Rahmat M.Samik-Ibrahim VLSM-TJT http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6825 -My clock display is QUALITATIVE:more sense,less positivist(m/tic)- * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 9 21:19:41 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id VAA28293 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 9 May 1998 21:19:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA28289 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 21:19:36 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA08363; Sat, 9 May 1998 07:22:30 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7B1A.78112E80@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 9 May 1998 07:17:05 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7B1A.78112E80@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "'Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim'" Cc: "'Daniel Karrenberg'" , "'tld-wg@ripe.net'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC Director General: what is the catch? Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 07:17:03 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk This is only one small example of why Internet Governance structures should take business models into consideration, as well as technical issues. In the IPv8 Plan there is no need for APNIC as an IPv4-only organization. The IPv8 address spaces are managed by the TLD authorities and the IPv4 address space is divided in a distributed way for management by the TLD authorities. APNIC might want to take the path that RIPE is taking. Namely, they are branching into the TLD arena with RIPE CENTR. This gives them the needed hooks into that area so that they have a viable business model for the future. If APNIC does that, they might be able to attract business people to properly manage the company and to provide the best service for the region. Jim Fleming On Friday, May 08, 1998 9:34 PM, Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim[SMTP:rms46@geocities.com] wrote: @Hello; @ @David R. Conrad wrote: @ @> Enclosed is the official APNIC Director General position posting. @ @So, the position is still empty? This is not the first time I saw @that announcement. Therefore, what is the catch? It seems, whether @we like it or not, that APNIC is Randy and Randy is APNIC. @ @ @> Feel free to recirculate where ever you feel appropriate. @ @I did it last time. It seems that it did not work. @ @ @> I _STRONGLY_ encourage anyone who has interest in the position @> to apply, regardless of whether or not you feel you meet all @> the requirements for the position. @ @There are not many fellows that understand both the technical part @and the policy/politic part of the issue. I am unfortunately @understand both. As I will not nominate myself (and thank you for @the big BOOBOO from behind), the closest Indonesian fellow that has @popped from my mind is Mr. Sanjaya from IndoInternet. @ @ @regards, @ @-- @Rahmat M.Samik-Ibrahim VLSM-TJT http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6825 @-My clock display is QUALITATIVE:more sense,less positivist(m/tic)- @ @* APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * @* To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * @ @ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 9 22:01:56 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA28666 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 9 May 1998 22:01:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA28660; Sat, 9 May 1998 22:01:48 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805091301.WAA28660@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 21:45:31 +0800 To: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] APNIC Director General: what is the catch? Cc: apnic-talk@apnic.net In-Reply-To: <3553C070.2A04D029@geocities.com> References: <199805081212.VAA06462@teckla.apnic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hi, >So, the position is still empty? Of course. We weren't expecting to hire anyone until the end of June or so. >This is not the first time I saw >that announcement. Therefore, what is the catch? No catch. The first announcement can be considered "pre-release beta". We did get a few takers, but it was always the intent that APNIC would engage an executive search firm. The announcement I sent out yesterday is the official announcment made by the company (KPMG Peat Marwick) we hired to perform the executive search. > It seems, whether >we like it or not, that APNIC is Randy and Randy is APNIC. No. APNIC used to be me, long, long ago. Now, APNIC is actually the membership, the EC, and the Secretariat. If I were run over by a sumo wrestler on the way home tonight, APNIC would continue to operate, addresses/AS numbers would continue to be allocated, and life would continue on pretty much the same as always (well, for everyone but me and (perhaps) the sumo wrestler). >There are not many fellows that understand both the technical part >and the policy/politic part of the issue. The primary responsibilities of the director general are to _manage_ APNIC and _facilitate_ the development of policies/procedures under which APNIC operates. Being able to read/respond to email, understanding what CIDR means (and its implications), knowing what an IP address is (and how it is different from a domain name), etc. are what are required for the technical parts. There is no requirement that the individual be able to reconfigure a BGP peering session, understand the architecture and deployment plans of a 1,000,000 host network, field strip a faulty PC, etc. APNIC has grown beyond the need for the DG to perform such services -- that's what the staff (hostmasters, system administrators, etc.) of the Secretariat are for. Much more critical are skills in managing people, administering a small business, and and ability to encourage (diplomatically and without bias) 200+ organizations to participate and reach a consensus in the development of policies and procedures that will affect the way they do business. Again, I _STRONGLY_ encourage anyone (and I mean ANYONE) who feels they can contribute to the ongoing develpment of the Internet in the AP region and who are interested in actively doing so at a _global_ level from within a multi-cultural organization (APNIC Secretariat's staff now consists of 2 people from Japan (although one will not be moving to AU), 1 from England, 1 from Australia, 1 from India, and 1 from Hong Kong. The EC consists of 1 person each from Japan, Thailand, Hong Kong, China, and Australia) to apply to be the new APNIC Director General. Let KPMG and the EC determine if you are qualified. Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 9 23:22:21 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id XAA29222 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:22:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA29218 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:22:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA08485; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:25:01 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7B2B.952545E0@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:19:35 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7B2B.952545E0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "'Adam Todd'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC Director General: what is the catch? Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 09:19:33 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Saturday, May 09, 1998 8:45 AM, David R. Conrad[SMTP:davidc@apnic.net] wrote: @ @Much more critical are skills in managing people, administering a small @business, and and ability to encourage (diplomatically and without bias) @200+ organizations to participate and reach a consensus in the development @of policies and procedures that will affect the way they do business. @ One of the ways that the new management of APNIC can pull the region together is to focus on the TLD authorities for the region. These are the people in the Registry Industry and who help to hold the Internet together. IP addresses are too technical and do not provide a solid foundation. Many business managers do not relate to them as a product or service. One way to get on board with TLD trends is to study the following documents: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/Australia.htm http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt Also, it is important to keep up on the evolution that is taking place. As an example, the IPv8 G6 TLD has been delegated to Adam Todd in Australia. This means that he can then work on delegating the following 256 zones. The G:S numbers on the left indicate the IPv8 Address Space that goes with each TLD authority. As an example, someone in the Philippines might handle the PHL TLD and they then also can manage the 6:3.X.X.X.X address space which is as large as the ENTIRE IPv4 legacy Internet. 6:0 BRAKE 6:1 OBJECT 6:2 CHARCOAL 6:3 PHL (PHILIPPINES) 6:4 SLIPPERS 6:5 CLOSURES 6:6 NUTS 6:7 ASSOCIATIONS 6:8 STEREO 6:9 CIGARS 6:10 HAIR 6:11 CLAY 6:12 LEFT 6:13 GUM (GUAM) 6:14 MECHANISMS 6:15 CXR (CHRISTMAS-ISLAND) 6:16 LATHE 6:17 TP (EAST-TIMOR) 6:18 FABRICS 6:19 WOMAN 6:20 IDN (INDONESIA) 6:21 ORGANIZATION 6:22 LAW 6:23 ATF (FRENCH-SOUTHERN-TERRITORIES) 6:24 JAPAN 6:25 FESTIVAL 6:26 COMICS 6:27 LAWN 6:28 COPY 6:29 FSM (MICRONESIA,-FEDERATED-STATES-OF) 6:30 FJI (FIJI) 6:31 MEDICINE 6:32 FUND 6:33 LEAD 6:34 LEAF 6:35 CARWASHE 6:36 TRIBUNE 6:37 CHAOS 6:38 DONUT 6:39 INDIVIDUAL 6:40 INTEGRATED 6:41 PLW (PALAU) 6:42 BROILER 6:43 LEGAL 6:44 SHOE 6:45 PIPE 6:46 OPTOMETRIST 6:47 COSMETICS 6:48 BROKEN 6:49 LEN 6:50 LESS 6:51 AUS (AUSTRALIA) 6:52 LIBRARY 6:53 KITCHEN 6:54 MW (MALAWI) 6:55 LIFE 6:56 ROUGH 6:57 JAZZ 6:58 SHOES 6:59 ASM (AMERICAN-SAMOA) 6:60 ORCHARD 6:61 LIGHT 6:62 LIMITED 6:63 SYMPHONY 6:64 G6 6:65 FOREST 6:66 NARROW 6:67 SUGAR 6:68 WEFT 6:69 TK (TOKELAU) 6:70 NOC 6:71 NZL (NEW-ZEALAND) 6:72 GARAGES 6:73 FLOUR 6:74 FIELD 6:75 TUV (TUVALU) 6:76 CHIPS 6:77 FAIR 6:78 LINED 6:79 OPERA 6:80 TKL (TOKELAU) 6:81 BROILERS 6:82 CAMPERS 6:83 NETZ 6:84 PERIPHERAL 6:85 UNIFORMS 6:86 AMUSEMENT 6:87 COK (COOK-ISLANDS) 6:88 PF (FRENCH-POLYNESIA) 6:89 LINEN 6:90 TECHNOLOGY 6:91 LINK 6:92 PYF (FRENCH-POLYNESIA) 6:93 REFLECTOR 6:94 DRYWALL 6:95 NCL (NEW-CALEDONIA) 6:96 WSM (SAMOA) 6:97 GARDENS 6:98 SPOOL 6:99 LOAN 6:100 LOCAL 6:101 ACTIVITY 6:102 ESTATES 6:103 MLI (MALI) 6:104 LOCK 6:105 LOCKER 6:106 MUSICIAN 6:107 LONG 6:108 PLACEMENT 6:109 CK (COOK-ISLANDS) 6:110 PHOTO 6:111 MAGNETIC 6:112 PISTON 6:113 BODIES 6:114 TO (TONGA) 6:115 LK (SRI-LANKA) 6:116 SCHOOL 6:117 MAJOR 6:118 RAMIE 6:119 FACT 6:120 MAKE 6:121 HARVEST 6:122 RAIN 6:123 MALT 6:124 PRIVATE 6:125 TON (TONGA) 6:126 CYBER 6:127 LKA (SRI-LANKA) 6:128 MAX 6:129 MWI (MALAWI) 6:130 NZ (NEW-ZEALAND) 6:131 MARKET 6:132 FJ (FIJI) 6:133 MEAN 6:134 CX (CHRISTMAS-ISLAND) 6:135 COSTUME 6:136 MY (MALAYSIA) 6:137 WHOLESALE 6:138 SG (SINGAPORE) 6:139 AIRPLANE 6:140 MEAT 6:141 UM (UNITED-STATES-MINOR-OUTLYING-ISLANDS) 6:142 DIET 6:143 THAT 6:144 WARP 6:145 UNDER 6:146 MAYONNAISE 6:147 MILK 6:148 REPAIR 6:149 RADIO 6:150 CAMP 6:151 EDGE 6:152 MISSE 6:153 PRESERVATION 6:154 SMALLWARE 6:155 UNITED 6:156 CC (COCOS-(KEELING)-ISLANDS) 6:157 PCN (PITCAIRN) 6:158 LIST 6:159 MISSION 6:160 RAILROAD 6:161 ROTTERDAM 6:162 THING 6:163 IRRIGATION 6:164 MV (MALDIVES) 6:165 NATURAL 6:166 TRADE 6:167 FOIL 6:168 CHRISTMAS 6:169 MIX 6:170 THUMB 6:171 TV (TUVALU) 6:172 MIXE 6:173 TF (FRENCH-SOUTHERN-TERRITORIES) 6:174 VENDING 6:175 ID (INDONESIA) 6:176 MYS (MALAYSIA) 6:177 JIG 6:178 JOBS 6:179 CARBONATED 6:180 ZINE 6:181 AS (AMERICAN-SAMOA) 6:182 FM (MICRONESIA,-FEDERATED-STATES-OF) 6:183 GU (GUAM) 6:184 PH (PHILIPPINES) 6:185 RETIREMENT 6:186 SOLID 6:187 ML (MALI) 6:188 PURSE 6:189 JOINT 6:190 LIME 6:191 CONTRACT 6:192 JOIST 6:193 JUG 6:194 CHEST 6:195 EGG 6:196 SUBSTANCE 6:197 JUICE 6:198 ERECTION 6:199 MAP 6:200 VU (VANUATU) 6:201 TMP (EAST-TIMOR) 6:202 CCK (COCOS-(KEELING)-ISLANDS) 6:203 K12 6:204 LODGING 6:205 NIU (NIUE) 6:206 KEG 6:207 PHYSICIANS 6:208 SIGNALS 6:209 SKIDS 6:210 KILN 6:211 PG (PAPUA-NEW-GUINEA) 6:212 BUSINESS 6:213 KNIT 6:214 UMI (UNITED-STATES-MINOR-OUTLYING-ISLANDS) 6:215 FARRIERS 6:216 MASONRY 6:217 BOATS 6:218 KNIVE 6:219 FORMING 6:220 WRAP 6:221 SERVICES 6:222 VUT (VANUATU) 6:223 LAWNMOWER 6:224 AU (AUSTRALIA) 6:225 FINISHING 6:226 PASSENGERS 6:227 SGP (SINGAPORE) 6:228 LAB 6:229 HAUS 6:230 JUTE 6:231 LABOR 6:232 REDRYING 6:233 WINDSHIELD 6:234 PW (PALAU) 6:235 AIDS 6:236 JELLIES 6:237 MANIFESTO 6:238 PIG 6:239 PNG (PAPUA-NEW-GUINEA) 6:240 FIRE 6:241 VIOLET 6:242 COMPACT 6:243 MDV (MALDIVES) 6:244 NC (NEW-CALEDONIA) 6:245 CRAYON 6:246 SPAGHETTI 6:247 WS (SAMOA) 6:248 BOUILLON 6:249 RURAL 6:250 LAKE 6:251 PN (PITCAIRN) 6:252 LOVE 6:253 SHAREWARE 6:254 HOGS 6:255 NU (NIUE) ======== In summary, the new person that takes over the APNIC, should become familiar with the G4, G5, and G6 IPv8 G-overnance regions. Adam Todd can provide more information on the G6 region. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 11 12:03:43 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id MAA19529 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:03:43 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA19523 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:03:37 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805110303.MAA19523@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:47:48 +0800 To: apnic-talk@apnic.net From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hi, Someone asked me privately about IPv8. IP version 8 was more popularly known as "PIP". It one of the proposed IPng protocols before "SIP" was chosen to be IPv6. To my knowledge, no further work has been done on PIP since the decision was made to go with SIP. Jim Fleming, I suspect the most commonly found person in "trash immediately without reading" mail filters on the planet (he's in mine), has decided to take the name "IPv8" for his ... (no good word here, its not a protocol -- perhaps "collection of half baked ideas"?) for whatever reason. Jim Fleming's "IPv8" exists only his fevered mind and a few people he's conned into cooperating with him. There is a really good reason you won't see many technical people responding to Jim Fleming. Most have (from painful experience) decided Fleming is a certifiable loon who is not worth wasting time on. Unfortunately, this means people who have not had the displeasure of dealing with Fleming (and thus who don't filter him out) get the wrong idea -- that his various fantasies can actually work. It is more likely the remaining IPv4 address space will be immediately allocated to the 50 US states (something else Fleming proposed a while back, but strangely, not on the APNIC-TALK list). Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 11 19:16:55 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id TAA26919 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:16:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from geocities.com (mail3.geocities.com [209.1.224.23]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA26913 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:16:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from yapcs-r2 (yapcs-r2.iscs.nus.sg [137.132.85.230]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA20075 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 03:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3556D0E9.25B6D3A@geocities.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:20:25 +0800 From: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Organization: VLSM-TJT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.30 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apnic-talk@apnic.net Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" References: <199805110303.MAA19523@teckla.apnic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hello: First of all, I am from Indonesia. Therefore, I am quite familiar with the term like: "I am the sole truth, and nothing but the truth" David R. Conrad wrote: > Jim Fleming, I suspect the most commonly found person in "trash > immediately without reading" mail filters on the planet (he's > in mine), has decided to take the name "IPv8" for his ... (no > good word here, its not a protocol -- perhaps "collection of > half baked ideas"?) for whatever reason. Sir: If you have put Jim F*ing in your filter, then how can you understand about what he is doing? By telepathy ? Regarding IPv8, I would like to give three comments: - IPv8 as an extention of IPv4 is an **interesting** idea. More work, however, is needed. - IPv8 as an extention of eDNS whatsoever with 2048 TLDs: **SUCKS** - The supermultiple recepients habit of Jim F*ing is really: **an Annoyance**. Jim F*ing should read the "How to sell your idea without annoying anyone" book. > There is a really good reason you won't see many technical people > responding to Jim Fleming. Filtering is just like "hiding your head in the sand", it does not solve any problem. tabe, -- Rahmat M.Samik-Ibrahim VLSM-TJT http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6825 -My clock display is qualitative:more sense,less positivist(m/tic)- * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 11 20:00:28 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id UAA27800 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:00:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA27791; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:00:18 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:44:44 +0800 To: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Cc: apnic-talk@apnic.net In-Reply-To: <3556D0E9.25B6D3A@geocities.com> References: <199805110303.MAA19523@teckla.apnic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hi, I have neither the interest nor intent to get involved in Yet Another "Let's Give Jim Fleming A Chance" discussion -- I've seen too many of them before. They generally end up in the same place (that is, with people who have work to do filtering him out while people with too much time on their hands railing against the injustice of people not being forced to listen to inanity). Feel free to champion Fleming as you wish. I will feel free to filter him and will no doubt miss out on the next wave of Internet technologies. My loss. >Filtering is just like "hiding your head in the sand", it >does not solve any problem. Enjoying spam then, are you? Perhaps filtering doesn't "solve any problem", but it does tend to make it less noticable. Bye bye, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 11 20:47:50 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id UAA29147 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:47:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from geocities.com (mail3.geocities.com [209.1.224.23]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id UAA29121 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:47:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from yapcs-r2 (yapcs-r2.iscs.nus.sg [137.132.85.230]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA18836 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 04:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3556E628.24D468D4@geocities.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:51:04 +0800 From: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Organization: VLSM-TJT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.30 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apnic-talk@apnic.net Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" References: <199805110303.MAA19523@teckla.apnic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Dear APNIC and CISCO: If you do not like Jim F*ing, it is *YOUR* problem. No pardon, but please do not start a misleading e-thread. regret, -- Rahmat M.Samik-Ibrahim VLSM-TJT http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6825 -My clock display is qualitative:more sense,less positivist(m/tic)- * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 11 22:27:04 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA01624 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:27:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA01618 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:26:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA13906 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:29:49 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7CB6.33037A80@webster.unir.net>; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:24:21 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7CB6.33037A80@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: [apnic-talk] FW: IP Space Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:24:20 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk ---------- From: Jim Fleming[SMTP:JimFleming@unety.net] Sent: Monday, May 11, 1998 8:19 AM To: daveg@netsol.com; dmitchel@nsf.gov; 'Harold Feld'; JimFleming@unety.net Cc: amr@chaos.com; antitrust@essential.org; antitrust@usdoj.gov; BBURR@ntia.doc.gov; Brock.Meeks@MSNBC.COM; carl@oppedahl.com; cgomes@internic.net; chrisc@netsol.com; cmueller@metrolink.net; dnrc-board@domain-name.org; Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov; Jay@Iperdome.com; jnh@skyscape.net; karl@cavebear.com; KathrynKL@aol.com; lsundro@nsf.gov; richard@SEXTON.COM; simon@higgs.com; steve@domainbank.net Subject: RE: IP Space On Monday, May 11, 1998 7:16 AM, Harold Feld[SMTP:hfeld@cov.com] wrote: @This may seem a naive question, but how much IP space is there remaining to administer? I thought that most of the IP addresses had been used (at least, I have heard a tremendous amount about an IP address shortage). Also, what happens to IP addresses when the IP-address holder goes under? Is IP address space property that can be bought and sold along with a business (or separately) (I know that Arin has a policy designed to discourage "specualtion" in IP address space, but there is a difference between speculation and sales of IP address space for legitimate purposes). @ @I confess, the model I'm familiar with is FCC and frequency licenses. @ All very good questions...here are my answers... You have to differentiate between IPv4, IPv8 and IPv6 address spaces. This is a little like the difference in the AM and FM spectrums. Let's assume that by IP you mean IPv4. IPv4 space is hardly used up. If you take a top down view of the space there are 256 hunks now commonly called /8s. Some of these /8s are reserved for special uses. Some are allocated to companies like DEC, HP, Apple, IBM, AT&T, etc. and are hardly used. Those companies use other pieces of the IPv4 space, some of which is managed by RIPE in Europe and APNIC in the Asia/Pacific (currently moving to Australia). ARIN is new to the scene. The U.S. Government (mostly via the NSF) approved the creation of ARIN to allow NSI to move into a position where they just had the .COM/.NET/.ORG TLD management. It was more like the classic movie comedy scene where the military leader asks for volunteers to step forward and all of the smart people step back, leaving the volunteers to be the people that did not move. Via very clever timing and confusing labels and words, the NSF, NSI and ARIN have worked to take the structure called InterNIC and strip it of its assets. This would be like taking something called an Air Force Base and making parts of it private to a point where all that remains is the runway which is then turned into part of an Interstate highway that happens to run down the middle of the private development. At some point, people walk away and say..."Hmm, what happened to that Air Force Base that used to be here?" Continuing, ARIN has apparently been handed billions of dollars in IPv4 assets. Because ARIN manages the IN-ADDR.ARPA zone, it essentially controls the entire IPv4 address space. Yes, people will claim that the IANA (aka Jon Postel) controls it, but Jon Postel is on ARIN's Board of Directors. Also, the domain name registrations handled by ARIN in IN-ADDR.ARPA determine who has been allocated parts of the space. As an example, 1/256th of the IPv4 address space has been allocated to DEC[1]. That is all 32 bit addresses that begin with 16. The IN-ADDR.ARPA delegation would be 16.IN-ADDR.ARPA. You could go through and do an inventory of all 256 of the /8s in the IPv4 space by looking at the domain names (or DNS zones) such as: 0.IN-ADDR.ARPA 1.IN-ADDR.ARPA 2.IN-ADDR.ARPA ... 253.IN-ADDR.ARPA 254.IN-ADDR.ARPA 255.IN-ADDR.ARPA If you did this you would find a very disorganized situation. Because of years of chaotic management, mostly by the U.S. Government, we have a situation where some groups have huge allocations and some have small allocations. As a group, ISPs have a very small part of the IPv4 address space. Much of the IPv4 address space remains "Reserved by the IANA". This is a problematic policy position because IP addresses do not wear-out. These blocks could be put into use to save ISPs and other companies millions of dollars in renumbering costs and aniexty, but instead, the IP space is controlled and made into a scarce resource. This creates an artificial value, and now companies pay large sums in the grey markets to obtain space which they should be able to easily get from the U.S. Government and other governments. Of course, this is not currently the case, because people are trying to move the resources to private companies, like ARIN, so that selected people can profit from the lease/sale of the assets. Yes, ARIN will claim they are not selling or leasing addresses. They claim they are providing a service for a fee and addresses just happen to come with the service. [BTW, Why the IRS approved ARIN as an non-profit company is beyond me. The IRS regulations clearly state that non-profit companies can not be engaged in providing services commonly provided by for-profit companies.] Continuing...the point needs to be raised that IP addresses do not wear out and as companies "go under" there should be a natural way they are recycled. This is currently not the case. Because of the mentality that IP addresses never come back, people in control of these resources take the position that the resources must be handed out slowly [and of course, they get paid high salaries to do that]. I have suggested for years that an approach be considered where IPv4 addresses are allocated in a manner similar to IPv8 addresses. People that earn high salaries managing IPv4 addresses disparage these approaches. Unfortunately, the U.S. Government officials do not understand the issues and they continue to make decisions in favor of the scarce resource methods. All of this is back up by the few companies that have huge allocations. The good news is that IPv8 addresses will not be handled in this manner. Huge blocks of IPv8 addresses are automatically delegated to various Internet stakeholders in a fair and equitable manner. This helps to prevent the situations we have today where the resources are in the hands of a few and they are allowed to charge high fees for what should be free or close to it. As I pointed out in my comments on the Green Paper. I think that more emphasis should be placed on IP address issues than domain names. Domain names are the sizzle and IP addresses are the steak. Domain names are the billboards and IP addresses are the farm land. Internet leaders keep encouraging the domain name discussions because they do not want people to get to the real issues which are allocation of IP addresses. http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/03_23_98-2.htm http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt Companies that have IP addresses prosper and save millions of dollars in administration costs. Companies that do not have IP addresses can struggle. ISPs are trained early in the game that they have to pay homage to the people with the IP address resources or they will not progress in the Internet industry. This is why they toe the line and follow the IANA. Recently, people are starting to realize that companies with huge IP allocations have idle assets which can now easily be leased or sold. People have also pointed out that these companies have a duty to their shareholders to capitalize on these assets. In some cases, the CEO of the company does not even know they have the assets which should appear on their balance sheets and in their annual reports. As various U.S. Government agencies get involved in these matters we are beginning to see a better understanding of the issues. In the past, the National Science Foundation managers were not prepared to deal with these issues or they chose to make decisions that favored their friends and cronies as opposed to what makes sense for society. Why they were allowed to do this is a subject that needs a complete investigation. The NSF has been alerted to the problems over the years and still to this day continues to work behind the scenes to try to manipulate these markets and the U.S. Government processes. Hopefully, there will soon be a response from the Department of Commerce. Some claim that another document will be released this week or next. Hopefully, it will begin to address some of these issues. In the meantime, from an IPv8 point of view, we have to proceed and assume that society will get the IPv4 mess cleaned up. IPv8 only depends on IPv4 (and IPv6) transports for the interim deployments. To that end, we should not care. Unfortunately, it is hard to not care, when one sees so many people suffering at the hands of a few. [1] ================================================ Digital Equipment Corporation (NET-DEC-INTERNET) Netname: DEC-INTERNET Netnumber: 16.0.0.0 Coordinator: Reid, Brian K. (BKR-ARIN) reid@PA.DEC.COM 415) 688-1307 Alternate Contact: Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC-NOC-ARIN) noc@DIGITAL.COM 1 888 622 5742, +1 415 688 1396 =================================================== - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 11 22:47:11 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA01836 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:47:11 +0900 (JST) Received: from kuji.off.connect.com.au (kuji.off.connect.com.au [203.63.69.33]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id WAA01832 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:47:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from connect.com.au (mrp@localhost) by kuji.off.connect.com.au with ESMTP id XAA19424 (8.8.8/IDA-1.6); Mon, 11 May 1998 23:19:09 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <199805111349.XAA19424@kuji.off.connect.com.au> To: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" cc: apnic-talk@apnic.net Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 May 1998 18:20:25 +0800." <3556D0E9.25B6D3A@geocities.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <19422.894894548.1@connect.com.au> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:19:08 +0930 From: Mark Prior Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk > There is a really good reason you won't see many technical people > responding to Jim Fleming. Filtering is just like "hiding your head in the sand", it does not solve any problem. Actually it does attempt to solve one problem, that of cutting down the amount of rubbish in my mailbox. Yes I filter email from him and email copied to him too. Mark. * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 00:51:03 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA02954 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:51:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id AAA02949 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:50:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA14188; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:53:50 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7CCA.51D69FA0@webster.unir.net>; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:48:23 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7CCA.51D69FA0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "'Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim'" Cc: "'Barry Raveendran Greene'" , "'fred@cisco.com'" , "'laina@singnet.com.sg'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:48:22 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Monday, May 11, 1998 6:51 AM, Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim[SMTP:rms46@geocities.com] wrote: @Dear APNIC and CISCO: @ @If you do not like Jim F*ing, it is *YOUR* problem. @No pardon, but please do not start a misleading e-thread. @ @regret, @ @-- @Rahmat M.Samik-Ibrahim VLSM-TJT http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6825 @-My clock display is qualitative:more sense,less positivist(m/tic)- @* APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * @* To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * @ @ CISCO is very influential in the APNIC region as well as on the IETF. Several people from CISCO have made disparaging comments about IPv8. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 01:04:53 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id BAA03136 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:04:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id BAA03130; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:04:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA14158; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:36:29 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7CC7.E58B7520@webster.unir.net>; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:31:02 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7CC7.E58B7520@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "'David R. Conrad'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:31:01 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 10, 1998 10:47 PM, David R. Conrad[SMTP:davidc@apnic.net] wrote: @-- that his various fantasies can actually work. It is more likely the @remaining IPv4 address space will be immediately allocated to the 50 US @states (something else Fleming proposed a while back, but strangely, not on @the APNIC-TALK list). @ This might be part of Mr. Conrad's problem. I did not suggest that the IPv4 address space be delegated to the 50 US States. I did suggest that each State be delegated the authority for their State under .US to take it out of the hands of Jon Postel (aka IANA). Since David Conrad is beholding to Jon Postel for all of the money he has made off of APNIC, it is not surprising that David would be opposed to moving control from Jon Postel. Back to the APNIC region. I look forward to continuing to work with people to get the G4, G5 and G6 Top Level Domains delegated to people in the region. The following URL shows the TLDs that are in those regions. The IPv8 Plan is very simple. The people behind the TLDs listed in each region form the governance for the region. They take their future in their own hands and make something of it. http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/03_23_98-2.htm I leave it to everyone to decide why David Conrad does not seem to want people in the APNIC region to have a say in their own future. Maybe David Conrad can explain why this is... - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 01:04:59 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id BAA03140 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:04:59 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id BAA03133 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:04:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA14165; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:37:52 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7CC8.174F0540@webster.unir.net>; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:32:26 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7CC8.174F0540@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Mark Prior'" , "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "'Adam Todd'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:32:25 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Monday, May 11, 1998 9:18 AM, Mark Prior[SMTP:mrp@connect.com.au] wrote: @ > There is a really good reason you won't see many technical people @ > responding to Jim Fleming. @ @ Filtering is just like "hiding your head in the sand", it @ does not solve any problem. @ @Actually it does attempt to solve one problem, that of cutting down @the amount of rubbish in my mailbox. @ @Yes I filter email from him and email copied to him too. @ @Mark. @* APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * @* To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * @ @ Fine...your choice...why not let others make their own choice ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 07:42:56 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id HAA08417 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 07:42:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id HAA08412 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 07:42:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA14920; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:45:40 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7D03.D9F18560@webster.unir.net>; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:40:13 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7D03.D9F18560@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Fred Baker'" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "'Barry Raveendran Greene'" , "'laina@singnet.com.sg'" , "'Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:40:12 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Monday, May 11, 1998 5:28 PM, Fred Baker[SMTP:fred@cisco.com] wrote: @At 10:48 AM -0500 5/11/98, Jim Fleming wrote: @>CISCO is very influential in the APNIC region as well as on the IETF. @>Several people from CISCO have made disparaging comments about IPv8. @ @It is common for people to say what they think on various subjects. You do @it as well. I would first suggest that their opinion is not automatically @Cisco or APNIC's opinion any more than your opinion is automatically that @of your employer or the forum in which you speak. I would further suggest @that you take it up privately with the people you have a concern with. It's @a free world, and one of the inalienable rights of any human being is the @right to have and to express his or her opinion. @ Yes...one of the hallmarks of the IPv8 Internet will be an emphasis on free speech and truely open decision-making. I am all for that. Also, another emphasis will be on ample resources and the distributed access and management of those resources. People will not have to sign loyalty oaths to participate. They just have to volunteer to help in the true spirit of the Internet. @And if you want it implemented, I would suggest that you post an internet @draft describing it, and demonstrate the existence of a marketplace that is @willing to pay for its implementation. Absent rubber-meets-road @specifications and marketing data, if I were you I wouldn't feel badly if @people didn't implement it. It is, after all, a free world, in which people @put their money where they see their needs and interests met. @ We do not have to do that. The most important aspect of IPv8 is the Address Management Plan. That is pretty well understood. The 43 bit IPv8 addresses fit nicely on the far right of the 128 bit IPv6 address fields. Therefore, IPv6 can be used as a transport for the interim. The IPv8 protocol is very simple and similar to IPv4. When it is needed as an optimization for IPv6, people can freely use it. At this stage of the game, the focus is on getting the resources into people's hands. As most people know, the IPv8 Plan starts by focusing on the top 2,048 TLDs in use in the world. Unlike some systems, we do not create these TLDs, we track them. This is more like a consumer reports metod. Here is a list. http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt As countries and companies get more involved in Internet Governance they can help to manage the IPv8 address space which is evenly distributed and has no central controller. It will be up to the people on Planet Earth to make it work. I have confident they will, once the insiders give them a chance. The insiders currently try to hold the people back...why ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 09:38:26 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id JAA10203 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:38:26 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA10198; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:38:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA15099; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:41:15 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7D13.FFF467E0@webster.unir.net>; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:35:48 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7D13.FFF467E0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Vincent Gebes'" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "'David R. Conrad'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:35:47 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Monday, May 11, 1998 7:23 PM, Vincent Gebes[SMTP:vgebes@jp.psi.net] wrote: @Mr. Fleming, @ @>. Since David Conrad @> is beholding to Jon Postel for all of the money he has made off of @> APNIC, i @ @Would you care to provide some details? As APNICs books @are open, I don't think you know what youre talking about. @Don't let reality get in the way of your agenda however. @ Are you claiming that David Conrad was not paid to run APNIC ? I do not think that is the case. @> I leave it to everyone to decide why David Conrad does not seem to @> want people in the APNIC region to have a say in their own future. @> Maybe David Conrad can explain why this is... @ @Again, APNIC is a member organization, and all decisions @are made by the folks in the AP region that use its services. @This is in great part to DRC's efforts. Again, if you have @anything to say which is based in reality, I'm sure folks @will be interested. @ That is great. I look forward to the members helping to work on IPv8 in the region. This will place the control of the Internet in their hands. They will not have to pay people to give them IP addresses. @Finally, IPV8 was proposed as a next generation network @architecture, rejected, and is basically dead. As an open @work of the IETF, you are free to develop based on it and @create your next generation network if you so desire. What @does that have to do with apnic-talk? @ That would be the IPv8 the IETF considered, not the IPv8 that has been discussed here. There is more to life and the Internet than the IETF. IPv8 will never be written up for the IETF. The IETF has their own agenda with IPv6. We all await the completion and deployment of IPv6. IPv8 leverages off of IPv6. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 11:06:25 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA11892 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:06:25 +0900 (JST) Received: from www.ah.net (root@www.ah.net [203.21.205.89]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA11856 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:05:42 +0900 (JST) Received: from alpha.ah.net (alpha.ah.net [203.21.204.10]) by www.ah.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17922; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:07:54 GMT Received: from at (at.alpha.ah.net [203.21.204.18]) by alpha.ah.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA17267; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:05:00 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980512115703.013d5750@alpha.ah.net> X-Sender: at@alpha.ah.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:57:03 +1000 To: Jim Fleming From: Adam Todd Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Cc: "'Mark Prior'" , "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" , "apnic-talk@apnic.net" In-Reply-To: <01BD7CC8.174F0540@webster.unir.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk At 10:32 11/05/98 -0500, Jim Fleming wrote: >On Monday, May 11, 1998 9:18 AM, Mark Prior[SMTP:mrp@connect.com.au] wrote: >@Actually it does attempt to solve one problem, that of cutting down >@the amount of rubbish in my mailbox. >@ >@Yes I filter email from him and email copied to him too. >@ >@Mark. >@* APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * >@* To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * > >Fine...your choice...why not let others make their own choice ? Jim, don't distress yourself. This is very typical Australian. When a "Technical Guru" doesn't understand something, or fears someone might be more knowledgable than themself, they FILTER and toss insults about the person. Most times very unfounded. I've learnt to live with it. I can assure you, the ISPs who aren't my clients are not doing as well as those who arepaying be $300 an hour for consulting. So it no longer bothers me. Especially when most of the "Filterites" are on a far lower slaray than I've even been on in my working life - now dating back to 1980. As you say - let it be "their" choice. I have and I get lerss noise these days from the Aussie ISP list than ever before and all the responses I get are form people (ISPs) who want a quick solution to a problem or wish to contract me. I give away a lot of my time to ISPs and end users who are not my clients. It's all fair in the end. Just to let you know - 17 Major AU ISPs (600-1000 users) have closed their doors or entered into receivership in the las three months. Thist trend is growing. None of them were or are my clients, yet the ones that are, are all doing very well and continue to do so with less technical staff and far fewer support calls. Do I look worried? If anything I'm doing myself out of a job. I only see these guys intensley for about 2-3 months. After that they start sending me "Hello, are you still alive" email messages, often asking if there is anything they can do to go the next step. That's the kind of people I like to work with :) I love to watch them grow. And these guys also realise that FILTERING out someones comments can often lead to - missing information :) Or even MISLEADING information! THE DOMAIN NAME HANDBOOK http://www.domainhandbook.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The advice offered in this email is not considered professional advice, or it would be accompanied by an invoice. No permission is granted for republication of comments, without written consent. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Business Development, Technology Domain Registration and Network Advisory Telstra Convey Member AURSC http://www.aursc.ah.net Adam Todd Personal http://adamtodd.ah.net at@aus or at@ah.net http://adam.says.sheesh Phone +61 2 9729 0565 Network http://www.ah.net AU Internet News http://www.ah.net/lists/lwgate/INTERNET/ AU Internet User Mail List http://www.ah.net/lists/lwgate/OZ-USER/ * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 11:41:20 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA12646 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:41:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA12631; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:41:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA15277; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:44:00 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7D25.257309C0@webster.unir.net>; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:38:33 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7D25.257309C0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Vincent Gebes'" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "'David R. Conrad'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:38:31 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Monday, May 11, 1998 8:55 PM, Vincent Gebes[SMTP:vgebes@jp.psi.net] wrote: @ @Great, could you send some documentation about the @non-IETF IPv8 for my reference. Something more @specific than a list of galaxies and associated TLDs @would be nice. Like packet formats, header options, @etc. Leveraging is nice, but it sounds like what youre @really saying is IPv8 is just 6 with your policy added, @in which case its just 6. @ http://ipv8.vrx.net should have packet formats... as you will see, it is not IPv6...what I said was that the 43 bit IPv8 addresses fit inside the 128 bit IPv6 address fields. One difference in IPv8 and IPv6 is that IPv8 has hierarchy built in. IPv6 is trying to add hierarchy as an after-thought. They have a mess on their hands. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 11:48:09 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA12731 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:48:09 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA12726; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:48:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA15290; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:50:57 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7D26.1E95B980@webster.unir.net>; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:45:31 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7D26.1E95B980@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Vincent Gebes'" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "'David R. Conrad'" Subject: [apnic-talk] Complaining about FREE IP Addresses Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:45:29 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Monday, May 11, 1998 8:55 PM, Vincent Gebes[SMTP:vgebes@jp.psi.net] wrote: @ @> That is great. I look forward to the members helping to @> work on IPv8 in the region. This will place the control @> of the Internet in their hands. They will not have to pay @> people to give them IP addresses. @ @Great, who could complain about that? @ I have a feeling that people trying to make money leasing or selling IP addresses will complain about an ample supply being available at no charge. They will likely side with the IPv6 crowd that is trying to get people to sign oaths and such to be part of that network. I do not think that sort of thing is necessary to try to lock people in. Instead, I suggest that we delegate a 32 bit address space the size of the entire existing Internet to anyone that is willing to support a TLD registry for fun or profit. This places the IPv8 resources into people's hands who can then help to manage the delegation of those resources. Every country in the Asia/Pacific region will have two or more such spaces. If they help to support more TLDs, they can have more address resources to manage. They are charged nothing... - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 13:48:58 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id NAA14022 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:00:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA14014 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:00:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA15386; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:03:25 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7D30.3DE8A180@webster.unir.net>; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:57:58 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7D30.3DE8A180@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Adam Todd'" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "'Mark Prior'" , "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:57:57 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Monday, May 11, 1998 8:57 PM, Adam Todd[SMTP:at@ah.net] wrote: @ @When a "Technical Guru" doesn't understand something, or fears someone @might be more knowledgable than themself, they FILTER and toss insults @about the person. Most times very unfounded. @ Adam, Maybe you can work with the people in that area to get the G6 delegations into the DNS system. That would be a good milestone. For example, who will be the contacts for the .AU TLD ? http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt 6:224 AU (AUSTRALIA) ; ; S224.G6 Zone ; @ IN SOA ?????. hostmaster.????. ( 1998050502 ; Serial number 172800 ; Refresh every 2 days 3600 ; Retry every hour 1728000 ; Expire every 20 days 172800 ); Minimum 2 days ; IN NS ???? IN NS ???? IN TXT "ALIAS: AU" IN RP ???? ???? IN-ADDR IN NS ???? IN NS ???? ; ========= ;; ANSWERS: g6. 172800 SOA ns.ah.net. hostmaster.ah.net. ( 1998050602 ; serial 172800 ; refresh (2 days) 3600 ; retry (1 hour) 1728000 ; expire (20 days) 172800 ) ; minimum (2 days) g6. 172800 NS ns.ah.net. g6. 172800 RP at.ah.net. www.ah.net. ;; AUTHORITY RECORDS: g6. 172800 NS ns.ah.net. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 14:45:07 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id OAA17704 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:45:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail1.cisco.com (mail1.cisco.com [171.68.225.60]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA17690 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:44:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com ([171.68.134.6] (may be forged)) by mail1.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id WAA02756; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Barry Raveendran Greene" To: "Jim Fleming" , "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Cc: , "'Adam Todd'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC Director General: what is the catch? Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:43:15 +0800 Message-ID: <004d01bd7d68$dbc910a0$23313ad1@bgreene-pc.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <01BD7B2B.952545E0@webster.unir.net> Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Jim, Your speaking out of ignorance. APNIC has consistently pulled the TLD groups together long before the gTLD issues erupted. APNIC has helped many of the TLD authorities start. APNIC stays engaged with the gTLD process and keeps it's members informed. Add to this the work by APIA, APNG, and APPLe on the TLD issues. All four groups are working together to create a new group specifically for the TLD authorities in the region to insure all Asia & Pacific TLDs have a seat in the new gTLD governance. Bottom line, the Asia and Pacific Internet community has pulled themselves together a long time ago. Try coming out here and find out for your self what is going on before launching into some type of pontification. Barry > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net [mailto:owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net]On > Behalf Of Jim Fleming > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 1998 10:20 PM > To: Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim > Cc: apnic-talk@apnic.net; 'Adam Todd' > Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC Director General: what is the catch? > > > On Saturday, May 09, 1998 8:45 AM, David R. > Conrad[SMTP:davidc@apnic.net] wrote: > > @ > @Much more critical are skills in managing people, administering a small > @business, and and ability to encourage (diplomatically and without bias) > @200+ organizations to participate and reach a consensus in the > development > @of policies and procedures that will affect the way they do business. > @ > > One of the ways that the new management of APNIC can pull the > region together is to focus on the TLD authorities for the region. > These are the people in the Registry Industry and who help to > hold the Internet together. IP addresses are too technical and > do not provide a solid foundation. Many business managers do > not relate to them as a product or service. > > One way to get on board with TLD trends is to study the following > documents: > > http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/Australia.htm > http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt > > Also, it is important to keep up on the evolution that is taking place. > As an example, the IPv8 G6 TLD has been delegated to Adam Todd > in Australia. This means that he can then work on delegating the following > 256 zones. The G:S numbers on the left indicate the IPv8 Address Space > that goes with each TLD authority. As an example, someone in the > Philippines might handle the PHL TLD and they then also can manage > the 6:3.X.X.X.X address space which is as large as the ENTIRE IPv4 > legacy Internet. > > 6:0 BRAKE > 6:1 OBJECT > 6:2 CHARCOAL > 6:3 PHL (PHILIPPINES) > 6:4 SLIPPERS > 6:5 CLOSURES > 6:6 NUTS > 6:7 ASSOCIATIONS > 6:8 STEREO > 6:9 CIGARS > 6:10 HAIR > 6:11 CLAY > 6:12 LEFT > 6:13 GUM (GUAM) > 6:14 MECHANISMS > 6:15 CXR (CHRISTMAS-ISLAND) > 6:16 LATHE > 6:17 TP (EAST-TIMOR) > 6:18 FABRICS > 6:19 WOMAN > 6:20 IDN (INDONESIA) > 6:21 ORGANIZATION > 6:22 LAW > 6:23 ATF (FRENCH-SOUTHERN-TERRITORIES) > 6:24 JAPAN > 6:25 FESTIVAL > 6:26 COMICS > 6:27 LAWN > 6:28 COPY > 6:29 FSM (MICRONESIA,-FEDERATED-STATES-OF) > 6:30 FJI (FIJI) > 6:31 MEDICINE > 6:32 FUND > 6:33 LEAD > 6:34 LEAF > 6:35 CARWASHE > 6:36 TRIBUNE > 6:37 CHAOS > 6:38 DONUT > 6:39 INDIVIDUAL > 6:40 INTEGRATED > 6:41 PLW (PALAU) > 6:42 BROILER > 6:43 LEGAL > 6:44 SHOE > 6:45 PIPE > 6:46 OPTOMETRIST > 6:47 COSMETICS > 6:48 BROKEN > 6:49 LEN > 6:50 LESS > 6:51 AUS (AUSTRALIA) > 6:52 LIBRARY > 6:53 KITCHEN > 6:54 MW (MALAWI) > 6:55 LIFE > 6:56 ROUGH > 6:57 JAZZ > 6:58 SHOES > 6:59 ASM (AMERICAN-SAMOA) > 6:60 ORCHARD > 6:61 LIGHT > 6:62 LIMITED > 6:63 SYMPHONY > 6:64 G6 > 6:65 FOREST > 6:66 NARROW > 6:67 SUGAR > 6:68 WEFT > 6:69 TK (TOKELAU) > 6:70 NOC > 6:71 NZL (NEW-ZEALAND) > 6:72 GARAGES > 6:73 FLOUR > 6:74 FIELD > 6:75 TUV (TUVALU) > 6:76 CHIPS > 6:77 FAIR > 6:78 LINED > 6:79 OPERA > 6:80 TKL (TOKELAU) > 6:81 BROILERS > 6:82 CAMPERS > 6:83 NETZ > 6:84 PERIPHERAL > 6:85 UNIFORMS > 6:86 AMUSEMENT > 6:87 COK (COOK-ISLANDS) > 6:88 PF (FRENCH-POLYNESIA) > 6:89 LINEN > 6:90 TECHNOLOGY > 6:91 LINK > 6:92 PYF (FRENCH-POLYNESIA) > 6:93 REFLECTOR > 6:94 DRYWALL > 6:95 NCL (NEW-CALEDONIA) > 6:96 WSM (SAMOA) > 6:97 GARDENS > 6:98 SPOOL > 6:99 LOAN > 6:100 LOCAL > 6:101 ACTIVITY > 6:102 ESTATES > 6:103 MLI (MALI) > 6:104 LOCK > 6:105 LOCKER > 6:106 MUSICIAN > 6:107 LONG > 6:108 PLACEMENT > 6:109 CK (COOK-ISLANDS) > 6:110 PHOTO > 6:111 MAGNETIC > 6:112 PISTON > 6:113 BODIES > 6:114 TO (TONGA) > 6:115 LK (SRI-LANKA) > 6:116 SCHOOL > 6:117 MAJOR > 6:118 RAMIE > 6:119 FACT > 6:120 MAKE > 6:121 HARVEST > 6:122 RAIN > 6:123 MALT > 6:124 PRIVATE > 6:125 TON (TONGA) > 6:126 CYBER > 6:127 LKA (SRI-LANKA) > 6:128 MAX > 6:129 MWI (MALAWI) > 6:130 NZ (NEW-ZEALAND) > 6:131 MARKET > 6:132 FJ (FIJI) > 6:133 MEAN > 6:134 CX (CHRISTMAS-ISLAND) > 6:135 COSTUME > 6:136 MY (MALAYSIA) > 6:137 WHOLESALE > 6:138 SG (SINGAPORE) > 6:139 AIRPLANE > 6:140 MEAT > 6:141 UM (UNITED-STATES-MINOR-OUTLYING-ISLANDS) > 6:142 DIET > 6:143 THAT > 6:144 WARP > 6:145 UNDER > 6:146 MAYONNAISE > 6:147 MILK > 6:148 REPAIR > 6:149 RADIO > 6:150 CAMP > 6:151 EDGE > 6:152 MISSE > 6:153 PRESERVATION > 6:154 SMALLWARE > 6:155 UNITED > 6:156 CC (COCOS-(KEELING)-ISLANDS) > 6:157 PCN (PITCAIRN) > 6:158 LIST > 6:159 MISSION > 6:160 RAILROAD > 6:161 ROTTERDAM > 6:162 THING > 6:163 IRRIGATION > 6:164 MV (MALDIVES) > 6:165 NATURAL > 6:166 TRADE > 6:167 FOIL > 6:168 CHRISTMAS > 6:169 MIX > 6:170 THUMB > 6:171 TV (TUVALU) > 6:172 MIXE > 6:173 TF (FRENCH-SOUTHERN-TERRITORIES) > 6:174 VENDING > 6:175 ID (INDONESIA) > 6:176 MYS (MALAYSIA) > 6:177 JIG > 6:178 JOBS > 6:179 CARBONATED > 6:180 ZINE > 6:181 AS (AMERICAN-SAMOA) > 6:182 FM (MICRONESIA,-FEDERATED-STATES-OF) > 6:183 GU (GUAM) > 6:184 PH (PHILIPPINES) > 6:185 RETIREMENT > 6:186 SOLID > 6:187 ML (MALI) > 6:188 PURSE > 6:189 JOINT > 6:190 LIME > 6:191 CONTRACT > 6:192 JOIST > 6:193 JUG > 6:194 CHEST > 6:195 EGG > 6:196 SUBSTANCE > 6:197 JUICE > 6:198 ERECTION > 6:199 MAP > 6:200 VU (VANUATU) > 6:201 TMP (EAST-TIMOR) > 6:202 CCK (COCOS-(KEELING)-ISLANDS) > 6:203 K12 > 6:204 LODGING > 6:205 NIU (NIUE) > 6:206 KEG > 6:207 PHYSICIANS > 6:208 SIGNALS > 6:209 SKIDS > 6:210 KILN > 6:211 PG (PAPUA-NEW-GUINEA) > 6:212 BUSINESS > 6:213 KNIT > 6:214 UMI (UNITED-STATES-MINOR-OUTLYING-ISLANDS) > 6:215 FARRIERS > 6:216 MASONRY > 6:217 BOATS > 6:218 KNIVE > 6:219 FORMING > 6:220 WRAP > 6:221 SERVICES > 6:222 VUT (VANUATU) > 6:223 LAWNMOWER > 6:224 AU (AUSTRALIA) > 6:225 FINISHING > 6:226 PASSENGERS > 6:227 SGP (SINGAPORE) > 6:228 LAB > 6:229 HAUS > 6:230 JUTE > 6:231 LABOR > 6:232 REDRYING > 6:233 WINDSHIELD > 6:234 PW (PALAU) > 6:235 AIDS > 6:236 JELLIES > 6:237 MANIFESTO > 6:238 PIG > 6:239 PNG (PAPUA-NEW-GUINEA) > 6:240 FIRE > 6:241 VIOLET > 6:242 COMPACT > 6:243 MDV (MALDIVES) > 6:244 NC (NEW-CALEDONIA) > 6:245 CRAYON > 6:246 SPAGHETTI > 6:247 WS (SAMOA) > 6:248 BOUILLON > 6:249 RURAL > 6:250 LAKE > 6:251 PN (PITCAIRN) > 6:252 LOVE > 6:253 SHAREWARE > 6:254 HOGS > 6:255 NU (NIUE) > > ======== > > In summary, the new person that takes over the APNIC, should > become familiar with the G4, G5, and G6 IPv8 G-overnance regions. > Adam Todd can provide more information on the G6 region. > > > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * > * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 15:00:13 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA18268 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 15:00:13 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA18258 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 15:00:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA15538; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:02:57 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7D40.F0E413E0@webster.unir.net>; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:57:30 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7D40.F0E413E0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "'Adam Todd'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC Director General: what is the catch? Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:57:29 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, May 12, 1998 12:43 AM, Barry Raveendran Greene[SMTP:bgreene@cisco.com] wrote: @ @APNIC has consistently pulled the TLD groups together long before the gTLD @issues erupted. APNIC has helped many of the TLD authorities start. APNIC @stays engaged with the gTLD process and keeps it's members informed. @ Hmmm, that's odd, why do people keep trying to claim that IP addresses and domain names have nothing to do with each other...?...yet, every time we turn around we see that APNIC and RIPE are leading the TLD groups... Also...you claim that APNIC keeps its members informed. Is there any chance that the message to the members could be one-sided ? What steps are taken to make sure that many views are presented to the members ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 18:03:38 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id SAA24481 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:03:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail1.cisco.com (mail1.cisco.com [171.68.225.60]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA24412 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:02:43 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com ([171.68.134.6] (may be forged)) by mail1.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id CAA07722; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Barry Raveendran Greene" To: "Jim Fleming" , "'Fred Baker'" Cc: , , "'Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:02:05 +0800 Message-ID: <006001bd7d84$a279faa0$23313ad1@bgreene-pc.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <01BD7D03.D9F18560@webster.unir.net> Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk [Again, my POV] > @And if you want it implemented, I would suggest that you post an internet > @draft describing it, and demonstrate the existence of a > marketplace that is > @willing to pay for its implementation. Absent rubber-meets-road > @specifications and marketing data, if I were you I wouldn't feel badly if > @people didn't implement it. It is, after all, a free world, in > which people > @put their money where they see their needs and interests met. > @ > > We do not have to do that. The most important aspect of IPv8 > is the Address Management Plan. That is pretty well understood. > The 43 bit IPv8 addresses fit nicely on the far right of the 128 bit > IPv6 address fields. Therefore, IPv6 can be used as a transport > for the interim. So, while all other Internet protocols and BCPs (including IP registry policies) are sent through the peer review process of the IETF, Jim's IPv8 does not. Hummm.. It's so simple to submit a IETF draft. Anyone on this list can submit something. We even have April Fool's drafts that were accepted as Informational RFCs that describe nonsense protocols (i.e. Internet April Fools jokes). Peer review is essential for good engineering. It's a core value of the IETF process. All three IP registries also go through peer review internally (members, BoDs, and advisors) and with each other. I still do not see why if you feel IPv8 is the savior of the Internet that you refuse to document it and publish it for peer review. Barry * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 18:03:18 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id SAA24454 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:03:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail1.cisco.com (mail1.cisco.com [171.68.225.60]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA24393 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:02:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com ([171.68.134.6] (may be forged)) by mail1.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id CAA07658; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Barry Raveendran Greene" To: "Jim Fleming" , , "'Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim'" Cc: , Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:01:48 +0800 Message-ID: <005d01bd7d84$986d58e0$23313ad1@bgreene-pc.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <01BD7CCA.51D69FA0@webster.unir.net> Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Please point everyone to a IETF draft! ANYONE can submit a IETF draft. There is no limitations. All ideas are welcome and will be processed by the peer review and working process of the IETF. This is how the Internet is build. It has nothing to do with Cisco. It has everything to do with being part of the process. Barry > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Fleming [mailto:JimFleming@unety.net] > Sent: Monday, May 11, 1998 11:48 PM > To: apnic-talk@apnic.net; 'Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim' > Cc: 'Barry Raveendran Greene'; 'fred@cisco.com'; 'laina@singnet.com.sg' > Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" > > > On Monday, May 11, 1998 6:51 AM, Rahmat M. > Samik-Ibrahim[SMTP:rms46@geocities.com] wrote: > @Dear APNIC and CISCO: > @ > @If you do not like Jim F*ing, it is *YOUR* problem. > @No pardon, but please do not start a misleading e-thread. > @ > @regret, > @ > @-- > @Rahmat M.Samik-Ibrahim VLSM-TJT http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6825 > @-My clock display is qualitative:more sense,less positivist(m/tic)- > @* APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * > @* To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * > @ > @ > > CISCO is very influential in the APNIC region > as well as on the IETF. Several people from CISCO > have made disparaging comments about IPv8. > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 18:18:11 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id SAA24462 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:03:25 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail1.cisco.com (mail1.cisco.com [171.68.225.60]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA24400; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:02:33 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com ([171.68.134.6] (may be forged)) by mail1.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id CAA07690; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Barry Raveendran Greene" To: "Jim Fleming" , , "'David R. Conrad'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:01:55 +0800 Message-ID: <005e01bd7d84$9cd064e0$23313ad1@bgreene-pc.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <01BD7CC7.E58B7520@webster.unir.net> Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk [Nothing related to Cisco Systems - just my personal POV.] Jim, You keeping on ranting about Asia, why not get on the plane and come out here. June's a good time. You've the CommunicAsia and the APEC/PECC meetings in Singapore the first week of June. Then, you've got N+I and the OECD meeting in Japan immediately following that. BTW - the Asia and Pacific Internet community has a very big say in what is going on out here. It's a theme that was started with APCCIRN (now APNG) and continued through the early days of APNIC (pre-incorporation) until today with formal (APNIC & APIA) and informal (APNG, APPLe, and APCERT) member organizations. All this activity has and will continue to influence the global Internet policies. If you wish to help the region, come out here and get to know people. Otherwise, please stop your patronizing messages about what "Asia" should do. Barry > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net [mailto:owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net]On > Behalf Of Jim Fleming > Sent: Monday, May 11, 1998 11:31 PM > To: apnic-talk@apnic.net; 'David R. Conrad' > Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" > > > On Sunday, May 10, 1998 10:47 PM, David R. > Conrad[SMTP:davidc@apnic.net] wrote: > > @-- that his various fantasies can actually work. It is more likely the > @remaining IPv4 address space will be immediately allocated to the 50 US > @states (something else Fleming proposed a while back, but > strangely, not on > @the APNIC-TALK list). > @ > > This might be part of Mr. Conrad's problem. I did not suggest that > the IPv4 address space be delegated to the 50 US States. I did suggest > that each State be delegated the authority for their State under .US > to take it out of the hands of Jon Postel (aka IANA). Since David Conrad > is beholding to Jon Postel for all of the money he has made off of > APNIC, it is not surprising that David would be opposed to moving > control from Jon Postel. > > Back to the APNIC region. I look forward to continuing to work with > people to get the G4, G5 and G6 Top Level Domains delegated to > people in the region. The following URL shows the TLDs that are > in those regions. The IPv8 Plan is very simple. The people behind > the TLDs listed in each region form the governance for the region. > They take their future in their own hands and make something of it. > http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/03_23_98-2.htm I leave it to everyone to decide why David Conrad does not seem to want people in the APNIC region to have a say in their own future. Maybe David Conrad can explain why this is... - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 18:24:37 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id SAA25809 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:24:37 +0900 (JST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id SAA25127 for apnic-announce-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:12:43 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA25106 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:12:24 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805120912.SAA25106@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:55:59 +0800 To: apnic-announce@apnic.net From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] [apnic-announce] DG position announcement (one last time) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: apnic-talk@apnic.net Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk [Note "reply-to:" field] Hi, Just to let you know, for those who couldn't unpack the RTF file, I have (through the kind help of Mark Prior and Tim Kehres) created a web page at http://www.apnic.net/jobs/dg.html Regards, -drc * APNIC-ANNOUNCE: Announcements concerning APNIC * * To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe" to apnic-announce-request@apnic.net * * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 18:39:34 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id SAA26532 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:39:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail1.cisco.com (mail1.cisco.com [171.68.225.60]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA26519 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:39:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com ([171.68.134.6] (may be forged)) by mail1.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id CAA14425; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Barry Raveendran Greene" To: "Jim Fleming" , "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Cc: , "'Adam Todd'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC Director General: what is the catch? Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:38:30 +0800 Message-ID: <006701bd7d89$b92149c0$23313ad1@bgreene-pc.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <01BD7D40.F0E413E0@webster.unir.net> Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Come to an APNIC meeting and find out. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net [mailto:owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net]On > Behalf Of Jim Fleming > Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 1:57 PM > To: Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim > Cc: apnic-talk@apnic.net; 'Adam Todd' > Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC Director General: what is the catch? > > > On Tuesday, May 12, 1998 12:43 AM, Barry Raveendran > Greene[SMTP:bgreene@cisco.com] wrote: > > @ > @APNIC has consistently pulled the TLD groups together long > before the gTLD > @issues erupted. APNIC has helped many of the TLD authorities start. APNIC > @stays engaged with the gTLD process and keeps it's members informed. > @ > > Hmmm, that's odd, why do people keep trying to claim > that IP addresses and domain names have nothing to > do with each other...?...yet, every time we turn around > we see that APNIC and RIPE are leading the TLD groups... > > Also...you claim that APNIC keeps its members informed. > Is there any chance that the message to the members > could be one-sided ? What steps are taken to make sure > that many views are presented to the members ? > > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * > * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 20:05:42 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id UAA28261 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:05:42 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA28252 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:05:34 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805121105.UAA28252@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:48:41 +0800 To: apnic-talk@apnic.net From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Ignorable (it is a response to a Fleming mail). Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Ignore this mail. Really. It contains a response to Jim Fleming that someone "kindly" sent to me. The only reason I wish to respond is to clarify a couple of minor points. I really do apologize for the additional lessening of the signal to noise ratio and I will not respond to any further "flemgrams", regardless of who sends them to me. >This might be part of Mr. Conrad's problem. I did not suggest that >the IPv4 address space be delegated to the 50 US States. If anyone really cares (I know, no one does), I would direct them to http://www.arin.net/archives/naipr.9703, message from JimFleming@unety.net dated 6 Mar 1997 (you can find it quickly with a "find in page" looking for "clarified..."). You'll discover Jim does indeed propose allocating IPv4 address space (/8s) to each state (in addition to 3 TLDs). However, I must admit I had mis-remembered Fleming's actual proposal, he was proposing allocating "only" 50 /8s (10 times the address space APNIC currently has), one for each state. Fleming also states that other countries could get address space by leasing it from the states. Apologies for my failing memory. >Since David Conrad is beholding to Jon Postel for all of the >money he has made off of APNIC, it is not surprising that >David would be opposed to moving control from Jon Postel. Actually, I'm very grateful the AP Internet community provided me with the opportunity to help set up APNIC. I am no more "beholding" to Jon Postel for providing APNIC's address space (presumably this is what Fleming is referring to) than I am to Miyazu Jun-ichiro-san (NTT President) for providing the telecom facilities APNIC uses to provide our services. >I leave it to everyone to decide why David Conrad does not seem to >want people in the APNIC region to have a say in their own future. I'll let my past activities, actions, and my words speak for themselves. People can make up their own minds. Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 21:55:51 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id VAA02785 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:55:51 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA02776 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:55:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA17389; Tue, 12 May 1998 07:58:38 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7D7B.02A8ACA0@webster.unir.net>; Tue, 12 May 1998 07:53:11 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7D7B.02A8ACA0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "'Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim'" Cc: "fred@cisco.com" , "laina@singnet.com.sg" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:53:10 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, May 12, 1998 4:01 AM, Barry Raveendran Greene[SMTP:bgreene@cisco.com] wrote: @Please point everyone to a IETF draft! @ The IETF is not the only group on the Internet... @ANYONE can submit a IETF draft. There is no limitations. All ideas are @welcome and will be processed by the peer review and working process of the @IETF. @ Right... @This is how the Internet is build. It has nothing to do with Cisco. It has @everything to do with being part of the process. @ This is how you view that the Internet is built...I do not...let's agree to disagree... By the way...there are many aspects of the Internet that the IETF had no part in developing. I predict there will be many more. Any group that endorses people who suggest that people be "killed with fire axes" is not a group that I will ever endorse. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 22:01:54 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA02883 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:01:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA02874 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:01:43 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA17399; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:04:37 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7D7B.D89A9260@webster.unir.net>; Tue, 12 May 1998 07:59:10 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7D7B.D89A9260@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Fred Baker'" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "laina@singnet.com.sg" , "'Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:59:09 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, May 12, 1998 4:02 AM, Barry Raveendran Greene[SMTP:bgreene@cisco.com] wrote: @ @Peer review is essential for good engineering. It's a core value of the IETF @process. All three IP registries also go through peer review internally @(members, BoDs, and advisors) and with each other. I still do not see why if @you feel IPv8 is the savior of the Internet that you refuse to document it @and publish it for peer review. @ Yes...peer review is essential for good engineering...in order to do that you have to have good engineers as part of the process. In my opinion, that does not lead one to the IETF. The IETF is a group of politicians in my opinion. It is a group that dwells on the past and not the future. This is one of the reasons why significant Internet developments (like the HTML and the WWW) did NOT come from the IETF. Again...there are other groups besides the IETF...does APNIC ONLY deal with the IETF ? Why does the IETF have a monopoly on engineering ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 22:09:31 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA02989 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:09:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA02984 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:09:26 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA17410; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:12:20 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7D7C.EC52ADA0@webster.unir.net>; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:06:53 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7D7C.EC52ADA0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'bgreene@cisco.com'" , "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "'Adam Todd'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC Director General: what is the catch? Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:06:51 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, May 12, 1998 4:38 AM, Barry Raveendran Greene[SMTP:bgreene@cisco.com] wrote: @Come to an APNIC meeting and find out. @ Why don't you use the Internet ? It is more efficient... Not everyone has the budget of CISCO systems to fly them around the world. Why would you suggest that people have to play by the rules that favor CISCO ? Again...why not use the Internet... What have you done recently to help promote the Internet in the Asia/Pacific region ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 22:28:30 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA03273 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:28:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA03268; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:28:25 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA17448; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:31:20 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7D7F.93C63140@webster.unir.net>; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:25:52 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7D7F.93C63140@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "'David R. Conrad'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Ignorable (it is a response to a Fleming mail). Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:25:51 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, May 12, 1998 6:48 AM, David R. Conrad[SMTP:davidc@apnic.net] wrote: @ @>This might be part of Mr. Conrad's problem. I did not suggest that @>the IPv4 address space be delegated to the 50 US States. @ @If anyone really cares (I know, no one does), I would direct them to @http://www.arin.net/archives/naipr.9703, message from JimFleming@unety.net @dated 6 Mar 1997 (you can find it quickly with a "find in page" looking @for "clarified..."). You'll discover Jim does indeed propose allocating @IPv4 address space (/8s) to each state (in addition to 3 TLDs). @ IPv8 has progressed since that time. You may not have been keeping up on the leading edge developments. With your proposed job change and the move of APNIC to Australia, I suspect you are busy with other matters. The current IPv8 proposal for the IPv4 address space is to use the 11 bit G:S number to identify blocks of IPv4 space that would be managed by the 2,048 TLD authorities. Note, I said "manage" not route. People seem to get this mixed up. Especially people with an IETF view of the world. Without going into all of the details, the current proposals are to give each of the 2,048 TLD authorities one complete IPv8 address space which is a full 32 bit space and is as large as the current Internet. 0:0 is delegated to ARPA and is the legacy Internet. Besides this one huge space, the proposal is to delegate several smaller parts of the IPv4 space to the TLD authorities to distribute that resource around the world in a fair and equitable manner. Comments from all regions are welcome at all times and people do not have to fly to the U.S., the Caribbean or the U.K. to make those comments. The best place to make them is on the Internet. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 22:34:03 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA03352 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:34:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA03348 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:33:59 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA17454 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:36:54 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7D80.5B148800@webster.unir.net>; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:31:27 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7D80.5B148800@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: [apnic-talk] APNIC and GAR Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:31:26 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Can someone in APNIC explain APNIC's involvement with GAR ? @@@@ http://www.arin.net/archives/arin-members.9803 "The three current regional number registries (APNIC, RIPE, ARIN) have been working for the past year with the IANA to create a Global Address Registry (GAR) for this purpose." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 12 22:47:02 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA03463 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:47:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA03459 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:46:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA17466; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:49:52 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7D82.2A8631A0@webster.unir.net>; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:44:24 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7D82.2A8631A0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Fred Baker'" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "laina@singnet.com.sg" , "'Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:44:23 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, May 12, 1998 4:02 AM, Barry Raveendran Greene[SMTP:bgreene@cisco.com] wrote: @ @Peer review is essential for good engineering. It's a core value of the IETF @process. All three IP registries also go through peer review internally @(members, BoDs, and advisors) and with each other. I still do not see why if @you feel IPv8 is the savior of the Internet that you refuse to document it @and publish it for peer review. @ By the way...IPv8 is being documented...these e-mail exchanges are part of the documentation...just like exchanges that could be documented in IETF working groups... I do not refuse to document it, I just refuse to document it in conjunction with a group like the IETF. I also refuse to document it in concert with the KKK and the NAZIS. That is my choice. The Internet is all about choice. Why is it that people refuse to give people choice ? In my opinion, if IPv8 comes about, it will come from the people. It will come from the grass-roots. It will come from the sum total of curious engineers who take the time to study it, add to it, and to make it happen. That is the Internet way. That is not what the IETF promotes. Also...there is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. It appears to me that APNIC is a very small group of people with a 100% IETF and CISCO view of the world. That is fine. There are other groups in the world. If IPv8 is worthwhile, those groups will find it or it will find them no matter how much APNIC trys to censor the messages. That is the Internet way... - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Wed May 13 08:13:51 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id HAA08697 for apnic-talk-out; Wed, 13 May 1998 07:58:35 +0900 (JST) Received: from anugpo.anu.edu.au (anugpo.anu.edu.au [150.203.2.6]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id HAA08658 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 07:57:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from its0192 (its0192.anu.edu.au [130.56.1.92]) by anugpo.anu.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA16948 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:59:36 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980513085926.0094a100@pophost.anu.edu.au> X-Sender: e810426@pophost.anu.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:59:26 +1000 To: apnic-talk@apnic.net From: Robin Erskine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk ubsubscibe Robin Erskine Phone +61 2 6249 4519 Director IT Services Fax +61 2 6249 5088 Australian National University E-mail director.its@anu.edu.au Canberra, ACT 0200, Australia * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Wed May 13 13:15:06 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id NAA13637 for apnic-talk-out; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:15:06 +0900 (JST) Received: from iisc.ernet.in (iisc.ernet.in [144.16.64.3]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA13586; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:11:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from ece.iisc.ernet.in by iisc.ernet.in (ERNET-IISc/SMI-4.1) id JAA20762; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:39:19 +0530 Received: by ece.iisc.ernet.in (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18769; Wed, 13 May 98 09:39:19+0530 From: gopi@ece.iisc.ernet.in (Gopi K Garge) Message-Id: <9805130409.AA18769@ece.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Ignorable (it is a response to a Fleming mail) To: apnic-talk@apnic.net Date: Wed, 13 May 98 9:39:19 GMT+5:30 Cc: davidc@apnic.net, jim@unety.net Phone: 91 80 334 0855 Request-Delivery-Notification: TRUE X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Gopi K Garge sez: From gopi Wed May 13 09:37:41 1998 From: gopi (Gopi K Garge) Message-Id: <9805130407.AA18558@ece.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Ignorable (it is a response to a Fleming mail). To: gopi (Gopi K Garge) Date: Wed, 13 May 98 9:37:40 GMT+5:30 In-Reply-To: <199805121105.UAA28252@teckla.apnic.net>; from "David R. Conrad" at May 12, 98 7:48 pm Phone: 91 80 334 0855 Request-Delivery-Notification: TRUE X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Jim, David R. Conrad sez: > >I leave it to everyone to decide why David Conrad does not seem to > >want people in the APNIC region to have a say in their own future. > I'll let my past activities, actions, and my words speak for themselves. > People can make up their own minds. If, for any reason, you term the APNIC and its community placid and unresponsive (not vocal), it is largely because we endorse what the APNIC has done and is doing. Randy, as a part of the APNIC, has represented our consensus. As for IPv8, is there a URL for the proposals ? Bottom Line: The IP world *cannot* be one big happy family ! Regards, --Gopi Garge -- * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Wed May 13 16:17:03 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id QAA17755 for apnic-talk-out; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:17:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA17743; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:16:53 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805130716.QAA17743@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:55:15 +0800 To: intl-wg@nic.ad.jp From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: [JPNIC intl-wg 219] comments on legal documents Cc: APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-Reply-To: <199805130554.OAA19482@mailbus.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Obata-san, Thank you _very_ much for the comments. Some of them will have to be answered by the lawyers. I'll take a shot at a few of them in the meantime. Note that my answers are based merely on my understanding of the intent and may not be "legally correct" interpretations. Regards, -drc >a) It is usual among Japanese organizations that a privately owned company >does not issue shares due to difficulty of storing such papers. In my >experience, it is usual that both a company and all of its shareholders >agree in writing that they do not issue shares in paper. I think it will >be beneficial for both the share holders and APNIC if we can adopt such >procedures. It is likely this will be dependent upon Australian laws and will ask Freehills, Hollingdale and Page (our lawyers). I agree that having a piece of paper around is annoying and it would be nice not to carry it around. >b) How is a case defined where a member organization such as a public >company (such as KDD) changes its registration due to merge or any such >transaction? Will it be considered as transfer of shares or just change in >the database? Clarification: shareholders != members. APNIC has no intention of issuing more than one share, that one share being held in trust by the director general for the Executive Council (see the Trust Statement). >c) It seems better that an international arbitration organization is >assigned as a default in case where the disputants cannot agree on anything >else. Again, a question that will need to go to the lawyers, but I don't see this is a problem (albeit, it assumes there is such a thing as an "International arbitration organization") >d) What is your idea of the initial people defined in this article, such >as, COB, Directors, President, members, officers and subscribers. May I >assume that they will be Chairmen of Executive Council, EC, Director >General, APNIC current members and current employees of APNIC, >respectively? I do not have a good idea of who the subscribers will be but >it seems to me that it may constitute of Directors, Director General and >possibly members of APNIC. APNIC Pty Ltd Directors == Director General (+ right now, due to the legal requirement for there to be a Director living in Australia one other non voting director. This second directorship will be abolished when the DG (regardless of nationality) is resident in Australia). President, Officers == Directors Subscribers == (people who hold shares in APNIC Pty Ltd) one of the Directors (me, actually) Members == APNIC Members >e) I could not find "section 125 of the Corporations Law." I thought I >could find it in the By-Laws. That is a reference to the Corporations Law of Australia. You'll find it at your nearest Law Library (the one that contains Australian law books. :-)) >**Membership Agreement** >a) How is a confederation member defined? Do you plan to define it later >and amend the agreement? Confederation status is an attribute of membership that is agreed upon separately from membership itself and requires a separate agreement. >b) It may not be a good idea to refer to RFCs in the main part of the >Agreement since it is more difficult to be changed. Although adoption of >such RFCs are not limited to the list in the Agreement, it will give enough >implication that may cause misinterpretation in the future when new RFCs >are issued. True, however there are no legal requirements to change the membership agreement (unlike changing By-Laws which needs a 2/3 majority of the members or changing the articles which needs to be filed with the AU gov't). Further, if we do not explicitly mention which RFCs, then it becomes much more difficult to define what exactly is being agreed to. >c) I am not sure whether reference to an FTP address in contracts have any >legal status. Will run it by the lawyers, but I suspect it has the same legal status as (say) telephone numbers. >d) Same comment for arbitration as above. > >e) Will there be any discount of annual membership fee for those >organizations joining later than 1 January of each year? I expect that it >is charged per month since the membership agreement commences on each first >day of a month. No, no discount. Billing is monthly, with the start of billing occuring the first day of the next month after the organization joins. The idea is that if an organization starts its membership on May 15, they would enter the billing cycle on June 1 (thereby getting 15 days of free service). Primary reason for this is that Kyoko feels the current daily billing cycle too difficult to manage. >f) It may be appropriate that the Schedule defines the number of shares >each membership shall acquire. As mentioned, shares won't be issued. >g) I expected that the subscribers of this agreement are the members (share >holders) of APNIC but I may be wrong. Right, you're mistaken. Yes, it is confusing. >h) It may be better that attendance to member meetings is defined to be an >obligation of a member. Hmmm. Would agree, except for the cost of attending APNIC meetings... what do others think? >**Memorandam** >a) Same comment as f) and g) of the Membership Agreement. Same response (:-)). >**Declaration of Trust** >a)Why are the other documents based on an organization structure >consituting of members, who hold the power, with Directors providing >operation while this document defines that members of the Executive Council >(the Beneficiaries) assignes a Trustee, who does not necessary belong to >the APNIC organization, for holding the only share which is defined to be >held by Members of APNIC in other documents? The structure of APNIC (both the current Seychelles company and the Australian company) is: - A minimalistic legal shell (the minimum necessary to create a legal entity according to the laws of the country in which it is incorporated) which creates a special committee called "APNIC" and immediately delegates all legal powers to that special committee - A special committee called "APNIC" which consists of the Membership which elects an Executive Council which hires a Director General. - The Director General which holds the single share of the minimalistic legal shell in trust for the EC which is the representative body of the Membership. (this last bit was one wart of the Seychelles company as there was no legal "trust" binding between the share holder and the EC, in other words, the share holder (me) could do anything he/she wants with the company. This is obviously broken (after all, we all know how evil I am :-)), so the "trust statement" legally requires the share holder to abide by the wishes of the EC). Does that clarify the relationships? >**By Laws** >a) There are sevaral misalignments between this document and the Articles >for definition of member meetings and its quorum, resolutions and etc. Can you be specific? >b) Ten days notice is too short for member meetings. I prefer a change to >1 month notice. OK. >c) The section defining election of the first executive council members can >be deleted now. Actually, it can't. APNIC Pty Ltd is a shell organization right now. It has no members as all current members have contractual agreements with APNIC Ltd (Seychelles). Without having members, it can't have an EC (since the EC comes from the membership). This section is in the by-laws in order to bootstrap the EC by simply transfering over the EC from the Seychelles. >d) The comments for articles, membership agreements, memorandum and >declaration of trust are the same for this document whenever applicable. Hmm. Could you be more specific? Thanks, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Wed May 13 16:54:07 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id QAA19547 for apnic-talk-out; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:54:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA19536 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:53:57 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805130753.QAA19536@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:33:41 +0800 To: apnic-talk@apnic.net From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Fwd: BOUNCE apnic-talk@apnic.net: Non-member submission from [Yoshihiro Obata ] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hi, A reminder -- to limit spam, APNIC-TALK only accepts email from people on the APNIC-TALK mailing list. If you wish to post to the APNIC-TALK mailing list, please subscribe by sending a message body of "subscribe" to APNIC-TALK-REQUEST@APNIC.NET. Thanks, -drc >Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:45:32 +0900 (JST) >From: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net >To: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net >Subject: BOUNCE apnic-talk@apnic.net: Non-member submission from [Yoshihiro Obata ] > >>From mlm Wed May 13 14:45:24 1998 >Received: from venus.kdd.co.jp (venus.kdd.co.jp [202.32.122.11]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA14907 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:45:23 +0900 (JST) >Received: by venus.kdd.co.jp; id OAA32546; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:47:50 +0900 (JST) >Received: from mailbus.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp by jupiter.kdd.co.jp; (8.8.8/1.1.8.2/13Apr95-0252PM) > id OAA01103; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:47:50 +0900 (JST) >Received: from gateway by mailbus.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp (8.8.8/KDD-1.00MX) > id OAA19482; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:54:09 +0900 (JST) >Message-Id: <199805130554.OAA19482@mailbus.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp> >X-Sender: obata@mailbus.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2-J (32) >Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:45:28 +0900 >To: APNIC-TALK@APNIC.NET >From: Yoshihiro Obata >Subject: comments on legal documents >Cc: ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, > ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" > >davidc> >davidc>The drafts for the legal documents that define APNIC Pty Ltd, the >davidc>Australian company, are available for comment. Please review the >documents >davidc>and make whatever comments you feel appropriate by May 22, 1998 >either to >davidc>the APNIC-TALK list or if you would prefer making comments in >private, to >davidc>hostmaster@apnic.net. > >drc> >drc> Apologies, it has been pointed out I did not indicate where the documents >drc> were available. Currently, you can access the files at: >drc> >drc> >drc> http://www.apnic.net/legal/legal.html >drc> >drc> (this is also available off the APNIC home page in the "News" >section). If >drc> you do not have web access and wish to review the documents, please send >drc> mail to hostmaster@apnic.net and we will provide you with the >documents in >drc> most any format. >drc> > > > >Dear Randy, > >I have a few questions and comments. These comments are entirely personal >and have no relationship with my employment, position in JPNIC IP Working >Group or the work as acting delegate of KDD Hong Kong as an APNIC member. > >You may recieve other questions and comments from JPNIC or KDD Hong Kong >reflecting their positions. > >I hope the following is helpful. I tried my best as an engineer but >unfortunately I do not have any ability of a lawyer. > >Sincerely, > >Yoshihiro Obata > > > >--------------------- >Questions and Comments > >**Articles** >a) It is usual among Japanese organizations that a privately owned company >does not issue shares due to difficulty of storing such papers. In my >experience, it is usual that both a company and all of its shareholders >agree in writing that they do not issue shares in paper. I think it will >be beneficial for both the share holders and APNIC if we can adopt such >procedures. > >b) How is a case defined where a member organization such as a public >company (such as KDD) changes its registration due to merge or any such >transaction? Will it be considered as transfer of shares or just change in >the database? > >c) It seems better that an international arbitration organization is >assigned as a default in case where the disputants cannot agree on anything >else. > >d) What is your idea of the initial people defined in this article, such >as, COB, Directors, President, members, officers and subscribers. May I >assume that they will be Chairmen of Executive Council, EC, Director >General, APNIC current members and current employees of APNIC, >respectively? I do not have a good idea of who the subscribers will be but >it seems to me that it may constitute of Directors, Director General and >possibly members of APNIC. > >e) I could not find "section 125 of the Corporations Law." I thought I >could find it in the By-Laws. > >**Membership Agreement** >a) How is a confederation member defined? Do you plan to define it later >and amend the agreement? > >b) It may not be a good idea to refer to RFCs in the main part of the >Agreement since it is more difficult to be changed. Although adoption of >such RFCs are not limited to the list in the Agreement, it will give enough >implication that may cause misinterpretation in the future when new RFCs >are issued. > >c) I am not sure whether reference to an FTP address in contracts have any >legal status. > >d) Same comment for arbitration as above. > >e) Will there be any discount of annual membership fee for those >organizations joining later than 1 January of each year? I expect that it >is charged per month since the membership agreement commences on each first >day of a month. > >f) It may be appropriate that the Schedule defines the number of shares >each membership shall acquire. > >g) I expected that the subscribers of this agreement are the members (share >holders) of APNIC but I may be wrong. > >h) It may be better that attendance to member meetings is defined to be an >obligation of a member. > >**Memorandam** >a) Same comment as f) and g) of the Membership Agreement. > >**Declaration of Trust** >a)Why are the other documents based on an organization structure >consituting of members, who hold the power, with Directors providing >operation while this document defines that members of the Executive Council >(the Beneficiaries) assignes a Trustee, who does not necessary belong to >the APNIC organization, for holding the only share which is defined to be >held by Members of APNIC in other documents? > >**By Laws** >a) There are sevaral misalignments between this document and the Articles >for definition of member meetings and its quorum, resolutions and etc. > >b) Ten days notice is too short for member meetings. I prefer a change to >1 month notice. > >c) The section defining election of the first executive council members can >be deleted now. > >d) The comments for articles, membership agreements, memorandum and >declaration of trust are the same for this document whenever applicable. > > > > > > >Yoshihiro OBATA (yo-obata@kdd.co.jp) >Manager, Internet Business, Global Multimedia Business Dept. >Kokusai Denshin Denwa (KDD) Co., Ltd., Japan >Phone +81-3-3347-6081, Fax +81-3-3347-5690 > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Wed May 13 17:28:14 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id RAA20400 for apnic-talk-out; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:28:14 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail1.cisco.com (mail1.cisco.com [171.68.225.60]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA20394 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:28:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com (singapore-async-151.cisco.com [171.68.85.151]) by mail1.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id BAA09892; Wed, 13 May 1998 01:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Barry Raveendran Greene" To: "Jim Fleming" , "'Fred Baker'" Cc: , , "'Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:27:29 +0800 Message-ID: <004b01bd7e48$f7b7b9c0$975544ab@bgreene-pc.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <01BD7D7B.D89A9260@webster.unir.net> Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk IEEE, ACM, ITU-T Pick one and submit. It seems to me you fear peer review of you idea. You like to hid behind E-mail banter but do not want to do the work that every other engineer goes through to get their ideas reviewed. Bary > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net [mailto:owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net]On > Behalf Of Jim Fleming > Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 8:59 PM > To: 'Fred Baker' > Cc: apnic-talk@apnic.net; laina@singnet.com.sg; 'Rahmat M. > Samik-Ibrahim' > Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" > > > On Tuesday, May 12, 1998 4:02 AM, Barry Raveendran > Greene[SMTP:bgreene@cisco.com] wrote: > > @ > @Peer review is essential for good engineering. It's a core value > of the IETF > @process. All three IP registries also go through peer review internally > @(members, BoDs, and advisors) and with each other. I still do > not see why if > @you feel IPv8 is the savior of the Internet that you refuse to > document it > @and publish it for peer review. > @ > > Yes...peer review is essential for good engineering...in order to do > that you have to have good engineers as part of the process. In > my opinion, that does not lead one to the IETF. The IETF is a > group of politicians in my opinion. It is a group that dwells on the > past and not the future. This is one of the reasons why significant > Internet developments (like the HTML and the WWW) did NOT > come from the IETF. > > Again...there are other groups besides the IETF...does APNIC > ONLY deal with the IETF ? Why does the IETF have a monopoly > on engineering ? > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * > * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Wed May 13 20:30:33 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id UAA01029 for apnic-talk-out; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:30:33 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA01023; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:30:25 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805131130.UAA01023@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:11:10 +0800 To: yo-obata@kdd.co.jp From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents Cc: ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-Reply-To: References: <199805130716.QAA17743@teckla.apnic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Obata-san, Again, thanks _very_ much for the comments. I encourage others to comment as well. >>Clarification: shareholders != members. APNIC has no intention of issuing >>more than one share, that one share being held in trust by the director >>general for the Executive Council (see the Trust Statement). > > I understand now (assuming that != means "not equal" since there were >several wrong code conversion when I read your documents with Japanese >Win95). Sorry. Yes it meant "not equal". C programmer in me coming out... >Please explain the meaning of "DG for the EC." I thought that DG >will be a trustee and I could not find organizational relationship between >DG and EC in the documents. The Trustee can be anyone, however in practice (historically), it is the Director General who is given the share of APNIC. According to item B. of the Trust Statement, the Trustee holds APNIC Pty Ltd on behalf of the executive council. I'll discuss with the lawyers the feasibility of making this historical situation explicit in the documents. >>>c) It seems better that an international arbitration organization is >>>assigned as a default in case where the disputants cannot agree on anything >>>else. > There is one in den Hague, Netherland, which we often use for international business. Hmm. Would AP region folk want to use an organization based in the Netherlands to arbitrate disputes? In any event, I'll ask the lawyers if there are any international organizations based in the region to render the issue moot. If there aren't we'll have to choose between The Hague and some national body in the region. >>>d) What is your idea of the initial people defined in this article, such >>>as, COB, Directors, President, members, officers and subscribers. May I >>>assume that they will be Chairmen of Executive Council, EC, Director >>>General, APNIC current members and current employees of APNIC, >>>respectively? I do not have a good idea of who the subscribers will be but >>>it seems to me that it may constitute of Directors, Director General and >>>possibly members of APNIC. ... >>Members == APNIC Members > >This is not aligned with the definition in the Articles say that "The >Company shall issue to every member holding registered shares >in the Company a certificate signed by a director or officer of the >Company under the Seal specifying." There seems to be different >use of the term "member" in each document. Yes, you are correct -- I thought you were speaking in more general terms. In the future, could you indicate which section of which document you are referring to so I don't get confused? >Please define the organization of APNIC using the same terms as >used in By-Laws in the Articles document. It must be helpful if you >also define the structure of APNIC. Clarification: The By-Laws speak to the special committee called APNIC only. The Articles speak to the corporation, APNIC Pty Ltd. In the case you mention above, members == shareholders. I will ask Freehills to be more consistent with their terminology. > It may be troublesome to sign membership agreements each time >there is a change. According to membership agreement item #21, changes automatically take effect upon renewal of the term, without the need to have a new agreement signed. Also, RFC document numbers do not change, thus a reference to RFC 2050 will always refer to the same document. >>>c) I am not sure whether reference to an FTP address in contracts have any >>>legal status. >>Will run it by the lawyers, but I suspect it has the same legal status as >>(say) telephone numbers. > In such case the content of the document is not directly refered since a >telephone number is only a contact address. As is the case with the FTP address. The idea here is that the Internet community will continue to make policy and we wanted a directory that contained those policy documents. Providing an FTP address would insure we wouldn't have to worry about other archives going away. >>No, no discount. Billing is monthly, with the start of billing occuring >>the first day of the next month after the organization joins. The idea is >>that if an organization starts its membership on May 15, they would enter >>the billing cycle on June 1 (thereby getting 15 days of free service). >>Primary reason for this is that Kyoko feels the current daily billing cycle >>too difficult to manage. > > I was asking whether you need to pay for the full year, which seems to >be the case reading the definition. Yes. In all but one case (clause 25) >It is not fair compared to the case when you leave APNIC you are refunded >of the unsubscribed part of the annual membership fee. Presumably you are asking about clause 25. This clause is intended to cover the case where an organization does not require _any_ allocation services but, because APNIC services are pre-paid, the organization has already paid some amount of money. We felt it appropriate that the organization should be able to obtain a refund (not including the one-time startup fee to cover the costs of initiating the membership and initial resource request review). If an organization recieves allocation services, then they are not entitled to a refund. >1. >Articles say >Upon the written request of members holding 5 per cent or more of the outstanding voting shares in the Company the directors shall convene a meeting of members. > >By-Laws says nothing Yes, as mentioned, the articles are addressing APNIC Pty Ltd and the By-Laws are addressing the special committee called APNIC established by APNIC Pty Ltd. However, the intent of that clause in the articles is to allow 5% of the shareholders to demand a meeting. I have had more trouble getting 5% of the members to come to called meetings (:-)), however if people think this would be a useful clause to add, it is easy to do so. Let me know. >2. >Articles say >A meeting of members is duly constituted and a quorum is said to be present if, at the commencement of the meeting, there are present in person or by proxy not less than 50 per cent of the votes of the shares or class or series of shares entitled to vote on resolutions of members to be considered at the meeting. If a quorum be present, notwithstanding the fact that such quorum may be represented by only one person then such person may resolve any matter and a certificate signed by such person accompanied where such person be a proxy by a copy of the proxy forms shall constitute a valid resolution of members. > >By-Laws say >A meeting of Members is duly constituted and a quorum is said to be present if, at the commencement of the meeting, there are present in person or by proxy not less than either 30% of the votes entitled to vote on resolutions of Members to be considered at the meeting, or 20 Members, whichever is less. I suspect the easiest solution here is to change the articles to read 30% of the votes or 20 shareholders. >There are others but I think it may not be necessary that you define the same thing in more than one document. I believe you have to, as they are addressing different bodies. Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Wed May 13 21:29:05 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id VAA02666 for apnic-talk-out; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:29:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA02662 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:28:59 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA20562; Wed, 13 May 1998 07:31:52 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7E40.6F8473C0@webster.unir.net>; Wed, 13 May 1998 07:26:25 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7E40.6F8473C0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Fred Baker'" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "laina@singnet.com.sg" , "'Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:26:23 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, May 12, 1998 11:47 PM, Fred Baker[SMTP:fred@cisco.com] wrote: @At 8:44 AM -0500 5/12/98, Jim Fleming wrote: @>Why is it that people refuse to give people choice ? @ @Nobody is refusing to let you make your choices. We're just pointing out @that we make choices too, and the choices you make don't interoperate well @with the choices we make. If that's OK with you, that's OK with us too. But @we'd like to be able to make interoperable choices, and it seems to us that @you're the one that's different. @ There are more people on Planet Earth not involved with the IETF than are involved. I prefer to work with the larger group even if we are "different" from you. What I have not been able to figure out is whether APNIC is composed of 100% IETF party members. If that is the case, then there is really no point in APNIC members discussing what IPv8 can do for them. They will be forced to use IPv6. That is their choice of course or at least the choice the IETF made for them. By the way...keep up the good work on IPv6. If there is anything that you can do to accelerate the schedules, please do so. We really can not wait much longer with IPv8 plans. July 4th 1998 is right around the corner at this point... - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Wed May 13 21:32:58 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id VAA02744 for apnic-talk-out; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:32:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA02740 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:32:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA20566; Wed, 13 May 1998 07:35:48 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7E40.FBCC0320@webster.unir.net>; Wed, 13 May 1998 07:30:20 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7E40.FBCC0320@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Fred Baker'" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "laina@singnet.com.sg" , "'Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:30:19 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, May 13, 1998 3:27 AM, Barry Raveendran Greene[SMTP:bgreene@cisco.com] wrote: @ @IEEE, ACM, ITU-T @ @Pick one and submit. It seems to me you fear peer review of you idea. You @like to hid behind E-mail banter but do not want to do the work that every @other engineer goes through to get their ideas reviewed. @ You missed the point...the work is being done by many engineers. This is a product of the Internet cooperation, not the IEEE, ACM or ITU-T. It looks like we agree on one thing. The IETF can now take its place among the group that you have listed and other bureacracies. IPv8 will continue to be a product of the Internet...not bureacracies... that may take more time, but in the end, it will be worth it...in my opinion... Any time you are interested in discussing technical matters and not the politics of Asia/Pacific or trade shows...let me know... - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Wed May 13 22:03:20 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA03229 for apnic-talk-out; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:03:20 +0900 (JST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA03141 for apnic-announce-out; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:01:14 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA03134 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:01:10 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805131301.WAA03134@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:41:32 +0800 To: apnic-announce@apnic.net From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] [apnic-announce] New Document Available (database-update-info) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: apnic-talk@apnic.net Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk [Note "reply-to:" field] A new document is available from the APNIC document store entitled "APNIC Registry Database Record Addition, Modification and Deletion Instructions" (database-update-info). This document obsoletes APNIC-057 and describes how to add, modify, and delete objects in the APNIC database. It includes information on the new mechanisms used to obtain NIC handles from APNIC and largely reflects information available from "whois -h whois.apnic.net auto-dbm". This document is available via anonymous FTP from ftp://ftp.apnic.net/apnic/docs/database-update-info also available as ftp://ftp.apnic.net/apnic/archive/apnic-64.txt (it is recommended you obtain the document from the docs/ directory as it always contains the most recent version). Should you have any questions or comments regarding this or any other document, feel free to contact hostmaster@apnic.net at your convenience. Access to APNIC documents is obtained via: * FTP FTP to ftp.apnic.net, cd to /apnic/docs to obtain the document by name, /apnic/archive to obtain the document by number. * Electronic Mail send a message body of "send help" to mail-server@apnic.net for instructions. Regards, -drc * APNIC-ANNOUNCE: Announcements concerning APNIC * * To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe" to apnic-announce-request@apnic.net * * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Wed May 13 22:08:09 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA03445 for apnic-talk-out; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:08:09 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA03432 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:07:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA20604; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:10:51 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7E45.E19ABE60@webster.unir.net>; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:05:23 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7E45.E19ABE60@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Fred Baker'" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "laina@singnet.com.sg" , "'Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:05:22 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, May 12, 1998 11:47 PM, Fred Baker[SMTP:fred@cisco.com] wrote: @At 8:44 AM -0500 5/12/98, Jim Fleming wrote: @>Why is it that people refuse to give people choice ? @ @Nobody is refusing to let you make your choices. We're just pointing out @that we make choices too, and the choices you make don't interoperate well @with the choices we make. If that's OK with you, that's OK with us too. But @we'd like to be able to make interoperable choices, and it seems to us that @you're the one that's different. @ By the way...the choices we (in IPv8 land) make interoperate very well with the choices you make... 1. 43 bit IPv8 addresses fit inside 128 bit IPv6 address fields. 2. IPv8 uses the IPv4 core transport network to carry bits. 3. IPv8 can also use an IPv6 network if it ever becomes deployed widely 4. IPv8 uses the basic features of IPv4 DNS that exist today 5. IPv8 leverages off the huge knowledge base of IPv4 with similar headers In summary, we interoperate with the best from IPv4 and IPv6. This is similar to the way DOS selected the basics of UNIX and set the rest aside until later... As far differences...IPv8 does not burn up IPv4 addresses the way IPv6 does. Why deploy a new protocol that encourages people to run dual stacks ? Those IPv4 addresses will be around forever. Furthermore, if people move to pure IPv6 they will not be able to talk to legacy IPv4 systems because those legacy systems can not talk back to a pure IPv6 machine. That could fragment the Internet. IPv8 conserves IPv4 address space. IPv8 moves legacy machines away from the core and to the edges where the Internet grows. IPv8 leverages off of DHCP and other technologies. IPv8 also is derived from a *platform model* as opposed to the IETF *protocol-centric models*. That is one of the major differences and one of the many reasons why the IETF is not qualified to deal with IPv8. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Wed May 13 22:39:23 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA03974 for apnic-talk-out; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:39:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA03968; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:39:16 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA20656; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:42:04 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7E4A.3E122C60@webster.unir.net>; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:36:37 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7E4A.3E122C60@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'David R. Conrad'" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" , "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" Subject: [apnic-talk] Why is APNIC Moving ? Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:36:35 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, May 13, 1998 2:55 AM, David R. Conrad[SMTP:davidc@apnic.net] wrote: @ @Actually, it can't. APNIC Pty Ltd is a shell organization right now. It @has no members as all current members have contractual agreements with @APNIC Ltd (Seychelles). Without having members, it can't have an EC (since @the EC comes from the membership). This section is in the by-laws in order @to bootstrap the EC by simply transfering over the EC from the Seychelles. @ Can someone explain why APNIC is moving ? Do regional registries generally move when one person wants to change jobs or careers ? What happens to all of the people and their needs in Japan, Korea, China, etc. ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Thu May 14 02:50:08 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id CAA08195 for apnic-talk-out; Thu, 14 May 1998 02:50:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id CAA08180; Thu, 14 May 1998 02:49:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA21017; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:52:12 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7E6D.2EF3B320@webster.unir.net>; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:46:44 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7E6D.2EF3B320@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'ARIN list'" Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" , "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'APPLe '" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" Cc: "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" , "'Jay@Iperdome.com'" , "'Jeff Williams'" Subject: [apnic-talk] ARIN Mailing Lists Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:46:42 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk John, Why aren't the e-mail discussions to which you refer posted on the ARIN web site ? Also, aren't these discussions subject to the "ex parte" rules because ARIN and IP number management is part of the Green Paper process ? Jim Fleming @@@@@ http://www.arin.net/archives/arin-members.9805 From owner-arin-members Tue May 12 21:57:42 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) id VAA05569 for arin-members-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:57:42 GMT Received: (from pdenitto@localhost) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) id VAA05564 for arin-members@arin.net; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:57:41 GMT Received: from rs.arin.net (rs1.arin.net [192.149.252.21]) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) with SMTP id AAA11926 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:49:28 GMT Received: (qmail 24081 invoked from network); 11 May 1998 00:49:27 -0000 Received: from sword.bbnplanet.com (199.94.209.25) by rs1.arin.net with SMTP; 11 May 1998 00:49:27 -0000 Received: from jcurran.bbnplanet.com (jcurran.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.40.80]) by sword.bbnplanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA07453 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980510204354.00cecac4@mail.bbnplanet.com> X-Sender: jcurran@mail.bbnplanet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:43:54 -0400 To: arin-members@arin.net From: John Curran Subject: Regarding the email discussions of the last two months Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-arin-members@arin.net Precedence: bulk [... This message being resent due to delivery failure on first attempt ...] Dear ARIN Members: You are all very much aware of the recent email volume over the last few months on the Advisory Council list and the ARIN Members' list discussing various aspects of ARIN policy and operation. The purpose of this letter is to make clear that the ARIN Board of Trustees is also very much aware of this discussion. The Board is interested in much of the subject matter and topics raised. However, the Board also regrets the tone that some of the exchanges have taken. The Board looks forward to hearing from the Advisory Council (AC) on many of the topics that have been raised, and has directed the AC to proceed with civil discussion towards consensus and recommendations. The ARIN Board will be meeting on June 30, the day after the AC meeting, and looks forward to any recommendations from the AC on these matters. Thanks, John Curran Chairman Board of Trustees @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Thu May 14 13:18:23 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id NAA18633 for apnic-talk-out; Thu, 14 May 1998 13:18:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA18618; Thu, 14 May 1998 13:18:06 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805140418.NAA18618@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:08:48 +0800 To: yo-obata@kdd.co.jp From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Re:[JPNIC ip-wg 4977] Re: comments on legal documents Cc: ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, yo-obata@kdd.co.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-Reply-To: References: <199805131130.UAA01023@teckla.apnic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hi, >I think there is still something wrong with the code conversion >since I see many "?" where "'" mus be used. I'll look into it (using Netscape Composer to generate the pages and am still learning). > Finally, I think I understand the structure. I was not aware of >the difference between APNIC and APNIC Pty Ltd. Is it possible >to change the name for the latter to something like AP-NIC to >avoid confusion? Will ask. > Just for clarification. Even if an ISP joins in November, they will >pay the annual fee for January to December and not December only. Almost. They would be billed Dec 1 and every Dec 1 there after as long as they remained a member. > By the way, when do you or the EC plans to hold the next APNIC >meeting? Not me. The EC has not made a decision yet on when to hold the next meeting. >Is there already any proposal? It might be too long to wait for the next APRICOT. I beleive they are thinking sometime in the Sept - Nov time frame. Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Thu May 14 16:29:28 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id QAA24854 for apnic-talk-out; Thu, 14 May 1998 16:29:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail1.cisco.com (mail1.cisco.com [171.68.225.60]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id QAA24850 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 16:29:22 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com (singapore-async-152.cisco.com [171.68.85.152]) by mail1.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id AAA10641; Thu, 14 May 1998 00:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Barry Raveendran Greene" To: "Jim Fleming" Cc: Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:28:42 +0800 Message-ID: <009101bd7f09$ebc918e0$975544ab@bgreene-pc.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <01BD7E40.FBCC0320@webster.unir.net> Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk OK, So this IPv8 idea will not be submitted to any engineering group. You've written off IETF, IEEE, ACM, and ITU-T as vehicles for submitting the idea and have peers comment/review on the idea. You are not suggesting any other alternative to these engineering groups other than "a product of the Internet." So, until we see IPv8 submitted somewhere, lets end this discussion. It's not irrelevant to APNIC discussions. BTW - Asia & Pacific Internet politics and regional trade show are more applicable to APNIC members than IPv8. Barry > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net [mailto:owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net]On > Behalf Of Jim Fleming > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 8:30 PM > To: 'Fred Baker' > Cc: apnic-talk@apnic.net; laina@singnet.com.sg; 'Rahmat M. > Samik-Ibrahim' > Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" > > > On Wednesday, May 13, 1998 3:27 AM, Barry Raveendran > Greene[SMTP:bgreene@cisco.com] wrote: > @ > @IEEE, ACM, ITU-T > @ > @Pick one and submit. It seems to me you fear peer review of you idea. You > @like to hid behind E-mail banter but do not want to do the work > that every > @other engineer goes through to get their ideas reviewed. > @ > > You missed the point...the work is being done by many engineers. > This is a product of the Internet cooperation, not the IEEE, ACM or ITU-T. > > It looks like we agree on one thing. The IETF can now take its place > among the group that you have listed and other bureacracies. > > IPv8 will continue to be a product of the Internet...not bureacracies... > that may take more time, but in the end, it will be worth it...in > my opinion... > > Any time you are interested in discussing technical matters and > not the politics of Asia/Pacific or trade shows...let me know... > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * > * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Thu May 14 22:04:50 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA06674 for apnic-talk-out; Thu, 14 May 1998 22:04:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA06670 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 22:04:43 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA23743; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:07:37 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7F0E.97A22EA0@webster.unir.net>; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:02:08 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7F0E.97A22EA0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'bgreene@cisco.com'" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] "IPv8" Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:02:07 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Thursday, May 14, 1998 2:28 AM, Barry Raveendran Greene[SMTP:bgreene@cisco.com] wrote: @OK, @ @So this IPv8 idea will not be submitted to any engineering group. You've @written off IETF, IEEE, ACM, and ITU-T as vehicles for submitting the idea @and have peers comment/review on the idea. You are not suggesting any other @alternative to these engineering groups other than "a product of the @Internet." @ Again, you seem to be missing the point... I hope we agree that those organizations can discuss anything they like. Even CISCO, the company you and Fred Baker work for, can do as you please. As for the rest of the world... Advanced routing topics are an interesting area. Some people will find them interesting and some will not. Some people might find it interesting to view IP addresses as "opaque handles" as opposed to host addresses. Some people might be interested in the view that the Internet is a large, distributed, object-oriented processing system and that IP addresses are opaque handles for the objects. Some people might find it interesting to discuss how the DNS can be used to store PSW (Processor Status Word) information for this distributed computer architecture and how addressing modes for part of the IP address space can be changed from real to virtual with the flip of a DNS switch. I could go on and on but I will not bore you... @So, until we see IPv8 submitted somewhere, lets end this discussion. It's @not irrelevant to APNIC discussions. @ IPv8 is out there, it does not need to be submitted anywhere. You are taking a "protocol-centric" view of the world. You assume that engineers are foolish and will walk up with their RFC in hand ready to be chewed up by the IETF clique and rejected as the IETF spends its time debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or where the next trade show is going to be held with the best parties...No...no thanks... @BTW - Asia & Pacific Internet politics and regional trade show are more @applicable to APNIC members than IPv8. @ I am sure they are. That will sell more CISCO routers, that's for sure. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Thu May 14 22:21:41 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA06884 for apnic-talk-out; Thu, 14 May 1998 22:21:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA06858; Thu, 14 May 1998 22:20:10 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA23767; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:23:02 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7F10.BECF41A0@webster.unir.net>; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:17:33 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7F10.BECF41A0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'ARIN list'" Cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'APPLe '" , "'tld-wg@ripe.net'" Subject: [apnic-talk] ARIN's View of Magaziner's DCISOC Appearance Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:17:32 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk @@@@@@ http://www.arin.net/archives/arin-members.9805 From owner-arin-members Wed May 13 21:38:09 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) id VAA28293 for arin-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:38:09 GMT Received: (from pdenitto@localhost) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) id VAA28288 for arin-members@arin.net; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:38:08 GMT Received: from localhost (memsvcs@localhost) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) with SMTP id VAA28264 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:36:49 GMT Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:36:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Member Services To: arin-members@arin.net Subject: Remarks by Ira Magaziner to DCISOC Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-arin-members@arin.net Precedence: bulk A Synopsis of Remarks Made by Ira Magaziner on the Topic of Internet Governance Monday evening, May 11, 1998, Ira Magaziner, Senior Advisor to the President for Policy Development, spoke on the topic of Internet Governance before an audience assembled by the DC chapter of the Internet Society. His presentation addressed the subject from the perspective of the U.S. Government and re-enforced previously stated positions that support the decentralization and privatization of the Internet. It has been several months since the Green Paper (Improvement of Technical Management of Internet Names and Addresses) was published. During that period, some 1500 pages of commentary, submitted in response to that paper, have been reviewed and evaluated. By the end of this week, or early next week, Magaziner promised, the government will publish a White Paper, incorporating some of the suggestions submitted by the Internet community. This would be "the implementing draft" for the upcoming transition. While carefully not divulging information in advance of publication, Magaziner's presentation provided some insight into the general approach that the government intends to take in the area of Internet governance. Referencing recent history and the role that government agencies played in launching the Internet, he told the group that the government still has a legal obligation with respect to Internet Governance but is eager to effect a smooth transition that minimizes its future involvement. In the past, he said, a technology of this sort would invite centralized inter-governmental control. He illustrated this point with references to industries such as telephone, radio and television. A highly regulatory approach "does not make sense" today, according to Magaziner. Instead, he described the vision of the U.S. Government for the Internet as it proceeds forward as relying on private sector leadership that is decentralized and international in nature. Describing the non-profit organization that would assume responsibility for Internet governance as the government's role was phased out, Magaziner outlined four areas of responsibility falling under that authority. The first of these is the assigning of Internet Protocol (IP) address blocks to the numbering authorities. The second area would be policy decision-making in Domain Name issues and the third would be oversight of the management of root servers. The fourth area of responsibility would be the establishment of Internet protocol under IETF guidelines. One issue that emerged clearly from Magaziner's remarks is the government's position that in the future, Domain Name registration should involve competition among registrars with shared access to generic top-level domains. No specific details regarding plans for accomplishing this goal were presented. The composition of the governing organization, based on the information provided Monday evening, will closely resemble the structure outlined in the original green paper. The government will recommend the inclusion of representatives from ARIN, RIPE, and APNIC on the Board. The government, he emphasized, would not appoint the Board but would "recognize" the Board appointed by the Stakeholders. Elaborating on the nature of the appointed Board, Magaziner set forth certain conditions that the new organization must meet to succeed. First, he said that the new organization must operate in a transparent manner with by-laws that allow it to "re-form itself." It is also important for the new organization to be incorporated under one legal authority to ensure stability and hopefully avoid having questions settled by "twenty different courts around the world." The new non-profit entity responsible for governance must have the legal authority and credibility to withstand the "inevitable lawsuits" that will occur. It must, he said, "be robust enough to go forward." In addition, Magaziner said that the organization itself must be international in scope and Stakeholder based. He expressed his belief that the European stakeholders have also accepted the underlying principles behind the new governance structures and that consensus has been achieved in many important areas of concern. He is hopeful that by late summer, the new organization will get underway. He indicated that NSI's contract would not be renewed but that negotiations with NSI would begin quickly following the issuance of the white paper. The transition will occur, but the timetable will be determined by events. The sooner the new organization becomes stable, the sooner the government will withdraw from an active role. The stability of the Internet is at stake and the government recognizes its responsibility and authority to ensure that stability. The white paper will provide the rules to bring about the transfer of control. In his remarks, Magaziner emphasized the need for balance in addressing the multiple issues that presently confront the Internet community. Issues of taxes, tariffs, privacy, and intellectual property, he acknowledged, create complexity and will require international consensus. Recognizing in his concluding remarks that none of us fully understands what is happening as we enter this transition period, Magaziner indicated that at least "we know enough to understand that we do not understand." The key, he said, is in the creation of structures that are flexible enough to evolve. He is also hopeful that groups of people willing to take on these challenges will emerge to take on leadership roles. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 15 23:03:59 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id XAA03515 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 15 May 1998 23:03:59 +0900 (JST) Received: from home2.nic.ad.jp (home2.nic.ad.jp [202.12.30.66]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA03506; Fri, 15 May 1998 23:03:39 +0900 (JST) Received: by home2.nic.ad.jp (8.6.11/TISN-1.3/R2) id WAA20056; Fri, 15 May 1998 22:59:56 +0900 Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:59:56 +0900 From: MARUYAMA Naomasa Message-Id: <199805151359.WAA20056@home2.nic.ad.jp> To: APNIC-TALK@apnic.net CC: ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, davidc@apnic.net, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-reply-to: (yo-obata@kdd.co.jp) Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents Reply-to: maruyama@nic.ad.jp Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk This is N. Maruyama, a vice president of JPNIC. >From: >Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:01:24 +0900 >There seems to be different use of the term "member" in each document. This is, I feel, a crucial point in these documents. A legal advisor of JPNIC is now studying these documents. His study is not yet finished, but he gave me a rough description of the proposed APNIC structure: "Members of APNIC Pty Ltd" are same as shareholders of APNIC Pty Ltd. They elect/remove "Directors of APNIC Pty Ltd". "Meeting of Directors of APNIC Pty Ltd" is empowered to create/remove "APNIC" as a special committee of "APNIC Pty Ltd". "APNIC" has AGM(Annual General Meeting)" as its organ which consists of "APNIC Members". AGM elects Executive Council members. And EC members elect DG(Director General). David wrote that APNIC Pty Ltd will issue only one share. So, the above description automatically implies that the structure of new APNIC is AUTOCRACY, not democracy by APNIC members. Here, I would like to ask all the APNIC-talk subscribers: Do we want AUTOCRACY for APNIC? Of course, I don't want it. I prefer democracy for APNIC. This autocratic structure is my main concern, but another concern for me is whether or not "APNIC Pty Ltd" is non-profit organization under Australian law. The document states that it is non-profit, but this may never be the answer. Whether or not an organization be considered by the government and lawyers to be non-profit depends, I believe, on the law on which the organization is grounded. What is the name of a law "Pty. Ltd." grounded on? In Japan, probono (legal term for "non-profit") organizations, like JPNIC, are grounded on the Civil code, whereas most commercial companies are grounded on the commercial law, and I believe there is similar legal structure in Australia. I know the current documents are rather direct imitation of the legal documents for the company in the Seychelles, but why do we need to imitate them? I understand that we built the company for the sake of some convenience, and we admitted it was commercial under the Seychelles law, but the situation in Australia must be different. ---- N. Maruyama (Vice President of JPNIC) maruyama@nic.ad.jp * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 16 00:35:15 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA05117 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 16 May 1998 00:35:15 +0900 (JST) Received: from home2.nic.ad.jp (home2.nic.ad.jp [202.12.30.66]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id AAA05108; Sat, 16 May 1998 00:35:07 +0900 (JST) Received: by home2.nic.ad.jp (8.6.11/TISN-1.3/R2) id AAA21379; Sat, 16 May 1998 00:31:22 +0900 Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:31:22 +0900 Message-Id: <199805151531.AAA21379@home2.nic.ad.jp> To: APNIC-TALK@apnic.net CC: davidc@apnic.net, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-reply-to: <01BD7E4A.3E122C60@webster.unir.net> (message from Jim Fleming on Wed, 13 May 1998 08:36:35 -0500) Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: [JPNIC intl-wg 224] Why is APNIC Moving ? From: maruyama@nic.ad.jp (=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRANF07M0Q+PjsbKEo=?= MARUYAMA Naomasa) Reply-to: maruyama@nic.ad.jp Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk This is Maruyama with JPNIC. >From: Jim Fleming >Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:36:35 -0500 >Can someone explain why APNIC is moving ? I think the following points were explained in previous APNIC meetings: 1. It is rather easy to establish a non-profit organization in AU. 2. APNIC will probably gain tax exempt status in AU. 3. The cost for maintaining APNIC office will be reasonable in AU. I think we must recheck these points in the current discussion of legal documents. >Do regional registries generally move when one >person wants to change jobs or careers ? I'm afraid this is offensive for Anne and David. I believe they were/are/will be willing to contribute APNIC, and they thought AU a good place for it. I thought, when I was attending APNIC meetings in Kuala Lumpur and Manila, it is not a bad idea to respect their thinking. >What happens to all of the people and their needs >in Japan, Korea, China, etc. ? To me, this seems to be an endless dispute. What happens to all of the people and their needs in India, Iran and Pakistan, in the case APNIC office stays in Japan? --- I don't like this kind of meaningless arguing. APNIC must be equal and must maintain good relationship with all of the members regardless of the distance from its office. For this purpose, I think it's crucially important for APNIC staffs to take advantage of every opportunities for communication to members, not merely sitting in front of the terminals. ---- N. Maruyama (Vice President of JPNIC) maruyama@nic.ad.jp * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 16 02:11:41 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id CAA06416 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 16 May 1998 02:11:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id CAA06410; Sat, 16 May 1998 02:11:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA27335; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:14:10 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7FFA.32F35000@webster.unir.net>; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:08:40 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7FFA.32F35000@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'ARIN list'" Cc: "'Adam Todd'" , "'Bala Pillai'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "davidc@apnic.net" , "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" Cc: "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" , "'Jeff Williams'" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" , "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:08:39 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Friday, May 15, 1998 8:59 AM, MARUYAMA Naomasa[SMTP:maruyama@nic.ad.jp] wrote: @This is N. Maruyama, a vice president of JPNIC. @ @>From: @>Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:01:24 +0900 @ @>There seems to be different use of the term "member" in each document. @ @This is, I feel, a crucial point in these documents. A legal advisor @of JPNIC is now studying these documents. His study is not yet @finished, but he gave me a rough description of the proposed APNIC @structure: @ @"Members of APNIC Pty Ltd" are same as shareholders of APNIC Pty Ltd. @They elect/remove "Directors of APNIC Pty Ltd". @"Meeting of Directors of APNIC Pty Ltd" is empowered to create/remove @"APNIC" as a special committee of "APNIC Pty Ltd". @"APNIC" has AGM(Annual General Meeting)" as its organ which consists @of "APNIC Members". AGM elects Executive Council members. @And EC members elect DG(Director General). @ @David wrote that APNIC Pty Ltd will issue only one share. So, the @above description automatically implies that the structure of new @APNIC is @ @ AUTOCRACY, @ @not democracy by APNIC members. @ @Here, I would like to ask all the APNIC-talk subscribers: @ @ Do we want AUTOCRACY for APNIC? @ @Of course, I don't want it. I prefer democracy for APNIC. @ @This autocratic structure is my main concern, but another concern @for me is whether or not "APNIC Pty Ltd" is non-profit organization @under Australian law. The document states that it is non-profit, but @this may never be the answer. Whether or not an organization be @considered by the government and lawyers to be non-profit depends, I @believe, on the law on which the organization is grounded. What is the @name of a law "Pty. Ltd." grounded on? @ @In Japan, probono (legal term for "non-profit") organizations, like @JPNIC, are grounded on the Civil code, whereas most commercial @companies are grounded on the commercial law, and I believe there is @similar legal structure in Australia. @ @I know the current documents are rather direct imitation of the legal @documents for the company in the Seychelles, but why do we need to @imitate them? I understand that we built the company for the sake of @some convenience, and we admitted it was commercial under the @Seychelles law, but the situation in Australia must be different. @ @---- @N. Maruyama (Vice President of JPNIC) @maruyama@nic.ad.jp @* APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * @* To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * @ @ Your bravery to make these comments restores my faith in humanity. I have had similar concerns. People will note that my questions went un-answered. One of the disturbing things about many of the matters surrounding APNIC, ARIN and to a lesser extent RIPE is the autocratic base upon which the structures are built. In the U.S. I believe that the U.S. Government is trying to change this and I have confidence they will. Many agencies of the U.S. Government are involved. One of the agencies that needs to become more involved is the U.S. Government's Internal Revenue Service (IRS). They grant approve non-profit status for companies according to the following information. No one, including the IRS, can explain how ARIN qualifies. Yet, they claim they are non-profit on their web site . http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/eo/index.html http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/eo/bus-orgs.html @@@@ http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/eo/bl-req.html "No part of its net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual and it may not be organized for profit or organized to engage in an activity ordinarily carried on for profit (even if the business is operated on a cooperative basis or produces only sufficient income to be self-sustaining)." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ARIN also claims to cover the Caribbean, Africa and South America but there does not seem to be many people from those regions that agree or participate. They go to RIPE and other places to get their IP addresses. In the Caribbean, it is easier to get IPv4 addresses from AT&T, than ARIN. AT&T has plenty of addresses: http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/html/nanog/msg02336.html In the IPv8 Plan, the functions provided by ARIN, RIPE and APNIC are distributed fairly around the world via a simple structured root. I have suggested that the people in the Asia/Pacific regions (G4, G5, and G6) work together to take their destiny into their own hands. By working in smaller "Round Tables" you can come to a local consensus and then have delegates bring that consensus to a global Round Table for final decisions. http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt One of the problems with the past is that APNIC is based on IP addresses only. This decouples the organization from the more human domain names. RIPE is headed in the other direction. You might want to study what they are doing. In my opinion, they have the most potential for avoiding the autocratic structure that seems to follow from anything the previous IANA created. This will all change soon. The U.S. Government is going to take control of the new IANA. The U.S. has a long history of democracy and I have confidence something good will come from that process. Unfortunately, it could take a long time to materialize. You have decisions to make now. I suggest that people from the various regions organize themselves to start making room for everyone at the Round Table and to start making decisions. What better place to do that than here on the Internet... - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 16 02:52:43 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id CAA07114 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 16 May 1998 02:52:43 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id CAA07109; Sat, 16 May 1998 02:52:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA27404; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:55:27 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7FFF.F807F120@webster.unir.net>; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:49:59 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD7FFF.F807F120@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" Cc: "davidc@apnic.net" , "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" Cc: "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Re: [JPNIC intl-wg 224] Why is APNIC Moving ? Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:49:57 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Friday, May 15, 1998 10:31 AM, =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRANF07M0Q+PjsbKEo=?= MARUYAMA Naomasa[SMTP:maruyama@nic.ad.jp] wrote: @ @To me, this seems to be an endless dispute. What happens to all of the @people and their needs in India, Iran and Pakistan, in the case APNIC @office stays in Japan? --- I don't like this kind of meaningless @arguing. APNIC must be equal and must maintain good relationship with @all of the members regardless of the distance from its office. For @this purpose, I think it's crucially important for APNIC staffs to @take advantage of every opportunities for communication to members, @not merely sitting in front of the terminals. @ APNIC is a very small part of a large puzzle. If you help to build the Internet Governance structure from a base where TLDs are the hooks where people first hang their hats, then you will bring 99.9% of the people into the system. You will have an inclusive solution, not an exclusive plan. In answer to your question about other countries... http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt 4:3 IND (INDIA) 4:203 IN (INDIA) 5:161 IO (BRITISH-INDIAN-OCEAN-TERRITORY) 5:222 IOT (BRITISH-INDIAN-OCEAN-TERRITORY) 0:110 PAKISTAN 4:175 PAK (PAKISTAN) 4:223 PK (PAKISTAN) 5:115 AE (UNITED-ARAB-EMIRATES) 5:162 IQ (IRAQ) 5:163 IRN (IRAN-(ISLAMIC-REPUBLIC-OF)) 5:205 IRQ (IRAQ) 5:236 ARE (UNITED-ARAB-EMIRATES) 5:241 IR (IRAN-(ISLAMIC-REPUBLIC-OF)) - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 16 03:19:51 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id DAA07794 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 16 May 1998 03:19:51 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id DAA07783; Sat, 16 May 1998 03:19:42 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA27458; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:22:35 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8003.C1F72A20@webster.unir.net>; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:17:06 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8003.C1F72A20@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" Cc: "davidc@apnic.net" , "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" Cc: "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" Subject: [apnic-talk] 5:161 IO (BRITISH-INDIAN-OCEAN-TERRITORY) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:17:05 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk By the way...you might want to note that is Internet One (IO ?) in the United Kingdom. 5:161 IO (BRITISH-INDIAN-OCEAN-TERRITORY) That is a long way from the Indian Ocean where APNIC is or was located in the Seychelles. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 16 03:39:56 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id DAA08232 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 16 May 1998 03:39:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id DAA08227; Sat, 16 May 1998 03:39:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA27488; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:42:36 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8006.8E145C20@webster.unir.net>; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:37:07 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8006.8E145C20@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" Cc: "'asjl@NETLINK.CO.NZ'" , "davidc@apnic.net" , "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" Cc: "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" , "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" , "'sanjib@MOS.COM.NP'" Subject: [apnic-talk] 4:116 JP (JAPAN) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:37:06 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Friday, May 15, 1998 10:31 AM, =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRANF07M0Q+PjsbKEo=?= MARUYAMA Naomasa[SMTP:maruyama@nic.ad.jp] wrote: @---- @N. Maruyama (Vice President of JPNIC) @maruyama@nic.ad.jp Rather than focus on India, Pakistan and other places, you might want to focus on JP the domain where you appear to hang your hat. Using the neighbor net approach, you look at the other TLDs near the G:S slot below and you start networking from there. As you will see, that takes you all sorts of places that does not necessarily center on Japan. This spreads the Internet Governance around and makes things more fair. http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt 4:109 SPICE 4:110 HOIST 4:111 PRESCRIPTION 4:112 FEDERAL 4:113 GRAPE 4:114 TRACTOR 4:115 CARRIER 4:116 JP (JAPAN) <----------------- 4:117 NP (NEPAL) <--- see below 4:118 BUG 4:119 WARM 4:120 TAXIS 4:121 CALIBRATION 4:122 HACKER 4:123 LABEL 4:124 DOG Nepal top-level domain (NP3-DOM) Mercantile Office Systems Durbar Marg P.O.Box 876 Kathmandu Nepal Domain Name: NP Administrative Contact: RajBhandari, Sanjib Raj (SRB3) sanjib@MOS.COM.NP +977-1-220773 (FAX) +977-1-225407 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Linton, Andy (AL152) asjl@NETLINK.CO.NZ +64 4 916 5312 (FAX) +64 4 916 5300 ======= - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 16 18:07:30 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id SAA16752 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 16 May 1998 18:07:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA16739; Sat, 16 May 1998 18:07:18 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805160907.SAA16739@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 17:50:40 +0800 To: maruyama@nic.ad.jp From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents Cc: APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-Reply-To: <199805151359.WAA20056@home2.nic.ad.jp> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Maruyama-san, Thanks _very_ much for the comments. >This is, I feel, a crucial point in these documents. A legal advisor >of JPNIC is now studying these documents. It may be best then to wait until the analysis is complete, however I will hazard a guess or two (and, of course, forward your comments/questions to our lawyers for their official comment). Previous disclaimers apply. >"Members of APNIC Pty Ltd" are same as shareholders of APNIC Pty Ltd. >They elect/remove "Directors of APNIC Pty Ltd". >"Meeting of Directors of APNIC Pty Ltd" is empowered to create/remove >"APNIC" as a special committee of "APNIC Pty Ltd". >"APNIC" has AGM(Annual General Meeting)" as its organ which consists >of "APNIC Members". AGM elects Executive Council members. >And EC members elect DG(Director General). Yes, this is what I tried to describe to Obata-san >David wrote that APNIC Pty Ltd will issue only one share. So, the >above description automatically implies that the structure of new >APNIC is > AUTOCRACY, >not democracy by APNIC members. Technically, I suppose it could be argued (although I'd disagree). One alternative structure would be to issue shares to all members which means a large amount of additional complications (e.g., logistics of actually issuing shares, how to handle the shares in cases of company sales, mergers, and accquisitions, how to handle replacement of shares, etc). All seemed a bit pointless to my advisors when the original incorporation was done (and I'll note that despite posting the M&A of the Seychelles company, no one actually made any comments on this issue). Instead, the proposal is that the single share be held in trust for the EC which represents the members. See the Trust Statement for the specific details. Since the EC is democratically elected by the membership and the share holder, by the requirements of the Trust Statement, acts on behalf of and for the EC, I would contend that the structure is NOT an autocracy and would be interested in seeing your counter-arguments. Note however that your analysis is quite true for the existing APNIC structure. It is indeed an autocracy, and this is THE most critical wart that needs to be fixed in APNIC's structure as it relies on the goodwill and honesty of the single share holder to insure APNIC acts on behalf of its members. In retrospect, it was a mistake to accept this structure and I apologize to the membership. >Here, I would like to ask all the APNIC-talk subscribers: > Do we want AUTOCRACY for APNIC? >Of course, I don't want it. I prefer democracy for APNIC. As would, I suspect, everyone. Thus my attempts to insure the new structure is more aligned with this requirement. >This autocratic structure is my main concern, but another concern >for me is whether or not "APNIC Pty Ltd" is non-profit organization >under Australian law. As I believe I explained in the meeting in Manila when you brought this up, it is my understanding that the concept of "non-profit" applies only to charitable organizations in Australia and APNIC has not applied for charitable status, thus I believe it safe to say that APNIC is _not_ a non-profit organization under Australian law. It is, however, tax exempt for all member derived income (a little over 98% of our income) by virtue of the Australian interpretation of "the doctrine of mutuality". >The document states that it is non-profit, but >this may never be the answer. On the contrary, I would contend that given APNIC's Articles of Association EXPLICITLY define it to be non-profit and that it may never "declare or pay dividends" (Articles, clause 15.1), whether or not the Australian government treats APNIC as a "non-profit" is essentially irrelevant. Any attempt for APNIC to do non-profit things would be in violation of its charter and "bad things" would happen. >What is the name of a law "Pty. Ltd." grounded on? the Corporations Law. >In Japan, probono (legal term for "non-profit") organizations, like >JPNIC, are grounded on the Civil code, whereas most commercial >companies are grounded on the commercial law, and I believe there is >similar legal structure in Australia. No idea. >I know the current documents are rather direct imitation of the legal >documents for the company in the Seychelles, but why do we need to >imitate them? Primarily convenience and the speed in which the everything can be finalized. Also, with the exception of the wart you have noted, I do subscribe to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" school of thought. However, the membership is free to _completely_ redraw any and/or all aspects of APNIC in any way they choose. As the sole voting director or APNIC Pty Ltd, I hereby (hopefully unnecessarily ) state publicly and for the record that I will (of course) accede to the wishes of the majority of the membership in however they would like to draw up the legal documents. That is, after all, the whole reason I spent a considerable amount of time hacking the output of MS Word ("Save As HTML" doesn't) into readable HTML documents and placed them on the APNIC web server. Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 16 18:51:58 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id SAA17340 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 16 May 1998 18:51:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA17328; Sat, 16 May 1998 18:51:49 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805160951.SAA17328@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 18:21:35 +0800 To: maruyama@nic.ad.jp From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: [JPNIC intl-wg 224] Why is APNIC Moving ? Cc: APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-Reply-To: <199805151531.AAA21379@home2.nic.ad.jp> References: <01BD7E4A.3E122C60@webster.unir.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Maruyama-san, >I think the following points were explained in previous APNIC >meetings: > >1. It is rather easy to establish a non-profit organization in AU. This was not one of the considerations of the search undertaken for a new location for APNIC. I actually have no idea how easy it is to establish a non-profit organization in AU. >2. APNIC will probably gain tax exempt status in AU. APNIC (the Seychelles company) has already obtained tax exempt status. We cannot apply for tax exempt status for APNIC Pty Ltd until all the legal documents have been finalized (thus the interest in speed). I should probably note that major changes to APNIC structure may result in significant delays in getting the tax exempt status from the Australian Tax Office where as keeping the existing structure would make getting the tax exemption "a non-issue" (according to our advisors in AU, KPMG Peat Marwick). >3. The cost for maintaining APNIC office will be reasonable in AU. More specifically, the cost of doing business in Australia (taking into account various factors including office rental, utilities, telecoms, cost of living, and in particular, taxation on APNIC's surplus) was found to be the least expensive. In addition, there were issues related to ease of obtaining visas, transparency of laws and business practices, quality of life issues, Internet connectivity issues, governmental policies with respect to information/censorship, and a few others I can't think of off hand. >I think we must recheck these points in the current discussion of >legal documents. >From my perspective, these would appear to be unrelated to the legal documents, however that is only my opinion. As mentioned in my previous mail, the membership is free to raise, discuss, alter, etc. any aspect of APNIC at their choosing. >>Do regional registries generally move when one >>person wants to change jobs or careers ? >I'm afraid this is offensive for Anne and David. Yes, it is, but it _very_ typical of Fleming -- always accusation by insinuation -- and one of the reasons I filter him out. Please note that my filters work on ANY header line containing a reference to Fleming or his domain name, thus if you wish me to respond to mail that is in some way referring to something Fleming has written, please make sure you remove references to him in the headers. My apologies for the inconvenience, but I have found it best. I should also note that my silence in response to Fleming's accusations, insinuations, and/or flights of fancy should in no way be taken as tacit agreement (or even disagreement, though it is more likely :-)), but merely that I haven't seen his messages. >I believe they >were/are/will be willing to contribute APNIC, and they thought AU a >good place for it. Yes. My recommendation was based on the research I undertook over a period of 6 months and the results of which were presented in the Kuala Lumpur APNIC meeting. My recommendation was submitted to the Executive Council who voted to accept the recommendation. >>What happens to all of the people and their needs >>in Japan, Korea, China, etc. ? >To me, this seems to be an endless dispute. What happens to all of the >people and their needs in India, Iran and Pakistan, in the case APNIC >office stays in Japan? Or people in Japan for that matter :-). >--- I don't like this kind of meaningless >arguing. APNIC must be equal and must maintain good relationship with >all of the members regardless of the distance from its office. Very true. >For >this purpose, I think it's crucially important for APNIC staffs to >take advantage of every opportunities for communication to members, >not merely sitting in front of the terminals. This is one area I believe (since I'm no longer DG, can't be sure... :-)) APNIC will be concentrating on in the future. It is planned that APNIC staff members will hold training classes for members in their countries and this will provide a good opportunity for the members to actually meet in person (as opposed to over the net) the people that they will be dealing with. I should note that I feel this is much more of a requirement in this region as opposed to Europe and/or North America and that I was slow to pick up on this. I wish to apologize for not meeting more of the membership in person. Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 16 21:43:10 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id VAA19467 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 16 May 1998 21:43:10 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA19461 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 21:43:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA00266 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 07:45:59 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD809D.E65CBCA0@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 07:40:29 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD809D.E65CBCA0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:40:28 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Does anyone know the details of how APNIC and APRICOT are linked from a financial point of view ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 16 22:24:41 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA19706 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 16 May 1998 22:24:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from singapura.singnet.com.sg (singapura.singnet.com.sg [165.21.10.10]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id WAA19701 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 22:24:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (cwl@localhost) by singapura.singnet.com.sg (8.8.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA06217; Sat, 16 May 1998 21:26:25 +0800 (SST) X-Authentication-Warning: singapura.singnet.com.sg: cwl owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 21:26:25 +0800 (SST) From: "Chang, Wai-Leong" To: Jim Fleming cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT In-Reply-To: <01BD809D.E65CBCA0@webster.unir.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Not that i know of. What is yor interest in pursuing this issue ? regards Chang Wai Leong SingNet Operation On Sat, 16 May 1998, Jim Fleming wrote: > > Does anyone know the details of how APNIC > and APRICOT are linked from a financial point > of view ? > > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * > * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 16 22:56:47 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA19820 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 16 May 1998 22:56:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA19815 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 22:56:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA00317; Sat, 16 May 1998 08:59:35 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80A8.2E932C20@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 08:54:06 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80A8.2E932C20@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" Cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 08:54:05 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Saturday, May 16, 1998 4:26 PM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] wrote: @ @Not that i know of. What is yor interest in pursuing this issue ? @ Are you saying that APNIC and APRICOT are not linked financially or that you do not know whether they are linked financially ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 16 23:19:02 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id XAA19945 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:19:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from singapura.singnet.com.sg (singapura.singnet.com.sg [165.21.10.10]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA19941 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:18:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (cwl@localhost) by singapura.singnet.com.sg (8.8.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id WAA12084; Sat, 16 May 1998 22:20:49 +0800 (SST) X-Authentication-Warning: singapura.singnet.com.sg: cwl owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 22:20:48 +0800 (SST) From: "Chang, Wai-Leong" To: Jim Fleming cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT In-Reply-To: <01BD80A8.2E932C20@webster.unir.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk To the best of my knowledge, they are not linked. Again, what is up ? regards Chang Wai Leong SingNet Operation On Sat, 16 May 1998, Jim Fleming wrote: > On Saturday, May 16, 1998 4:26 PM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] wrote: > @ > @Not that i know of. What is yor interest in pursuing this issue ? > @ > > Are you saying that APNIC and APRICOT are > not linked financially or that you do not know > whether they are linked financially ? > > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 16 23:23:34 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id XAA19972 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:23:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA19967 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:23:29 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA00397; Sat, 16 May 1998 09:26:23 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80AB.ED400280@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 09:20:54 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80AB.ED400280@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" Cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 09:20:53 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Saturday, May 16, 1998 5:20 PM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] wrote: @ @To the best of my knowledge, they are not linked. @Again, what is up ? @ I am not sure what you mean by "up"... the Internet is up and running... As for the question, how are APRICOT and APNIC linked financially ? Maybe the question should be... "Does David Conrad have a financial interest in both APNIC and APRICOT ?" - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 16 23:38:53 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id XAA20060 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:38:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from singapura.singnet.com.sg (singapura.singnet.com.sg [165.21.10.10]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA20055 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:38:46 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (cwl@localhost) by singapura.singnet.com.sg (8.8.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id WAA28410; Sat, 16 May 1998 22:40:39 +0800 (SST) X-Authentication-Warning: singapura.singnet.com.sg: cwl owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 22:40:39 +0800 (SST) From: "Chang, Wai-Leong" To: Jim Fleming cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT In-Reply-To: <01BD80AB.ED400280@webster.unir.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk > As for the question, how are APRICOT and APNIC > linked financially ? Maybe the question should be... > > "Does David Conrad have a financial interest in > both APNIC and APRICOT ?" > You sure or not ? APRICOT is just a operation seminar organised once a year for the Asia. What has that got to do with David Conrad ? > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 16 23:48:46 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id XAA20157 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:48:46 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA20153 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:48:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA00456 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 09:51:33 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80AF.7161AA20@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 09:46:04 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80AF.7161AA20@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 09:46:03 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Does "non-profit" mean an ALL volunteer staff ? Is anyone paid to organize APRICOT ? If so, how much are they paid ? @@@@@@ http://www.apricot.net/html/about_apricot.html APRICOT is a Non-Profit Event APRICOT's primary goal is to provide a vehicle for the transfer of technology and techniques to the Asia and Pacific Rim region. As such, our attendance fees are set below those of the more promotionally oriented conferences and in fact are set to match the fees found at many Internet Engineering Task Force meetings. ... One day APRICOT is an activity underwritten by the non-profit Asia Pacific Network Information Center, the Internet registry for the Asia and Pacific Rim regions, and is not intended to be profitable. Any surplus funds will be rolled over to keep attendance fees low at APRICOT '99." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 00:05:08 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA20248 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:05:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id AAA20244 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:05:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA00449; Sat, 16 May 1998 09:45:06 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80AE.8A8B6D20@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 09:39:37 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80AE.8A8B6D20@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" Cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 09:39:36 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Saturday, May 16, 1998 5:40 PM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] wrote: @ @> As for the question, how are APRICOT and APNIC @> linked financially ? Maybe the question should be... @> @> "Does David Conrad have a financial interest in @> both APNIC and APRICOT ?" @> @ @You sure or not ? @APRICOT is just a operation seminar organised once a year for the Asia. @What has that got to do with David Conrad ? @ Why don't you ask David Conrad ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 00:12:49 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA20290 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:12:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id AAA20285 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:12:40 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA00500; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:15:34 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80B2.CBE10E20@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:10:04 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80B2.CBE10E20@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'ARIN list'" Cc: "'Adam Todd'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" Subject: [apnic-talk] Is APNIC Only One of Three ? Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:10:03 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk In the ad for a new "director general" the APNIC claims to be one of only *three* organizations in the world that coordinates resource allocation. Is that true ? What about the IANA (or IANA Inc.)? What about all of the LIRs of RIPE ? What about the companies that now are dividing up their /8s ? What about @Home ? @@@@@ http://www.apnic.net/jobs/dg.html "director general * IT/Communications Industry * Package >US$90,000 Negotiable * Location: Brisbane, Australia The Asia Pacific Network Information Center (APNIC) co-ordinates resource allocation for internet service providers across the Asia Pacific region. It is one of only 3 organisations who perform these functions world-wide." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ By the way...is $90,000 (U.S.) per year for Australia a good salary ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 00:22:21 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA20378 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:22:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id AAA20374 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:22:12 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA00523; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:24:50 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80B4.17943760@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:19:21 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80B4.17943760@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Jon Postel'" Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Christopher Ambler'" , "'Don Mitchell'" Cc: "'Don Heath'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" , "'ARIN list'" , "'Simon Higgs'" Subject: [apnic-talk] How does the IANA collect money ? Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:19:20 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Jon, If the current IANA is not a "company" how can it receive $50,000 ? Where does the money get deposited ? Does this go to the NSF ? Does this go to ARIN ? Does this go to USC/ISI ? Does it go to the ISOC ? @@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/financial_status.htm#c3_2 "Service fees which consisted of the APNIC payment of US $50,000 to the IANA in April, 1997;" @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 00:39:17 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA20510 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:39:17 +0900 (JST) Received: from chaiwan.hk.super.net (chaiwan.hk.super.net [202.14.67.34]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id AAA20505 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:39:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from kwaifong.hk.super.net (root@kwaifong.hk.super.net [202.14.67.7]) by chaiwan.hk.super.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16239; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:41:31 +0800 (HKT) Received: from mypc.hk.super.net (max8-12.hk.super.net [202.64.24.12]) by kwaifong.hk.super.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA29235; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:41:29 +0800 (HKT) Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 23:41:29 +0800 (HKT) Message-Id: <199805161541.XAA29235@kwaifong.hk.super.net> X-Sender: pindar@pop.hk.super.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Jim Fleming , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'ARIN list'" From: pindar@hk.super.net (Pindar Wong) Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Is APNIC Only One of Three ? Cc: "'Adam Todd'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk At 10:10 AM 5/16/98 -0500, Jim Fleming wrote: > >In the ad for a new "director general" the APNIC >claims to be one of only *three* organizations in >the world that coordinates resource allocation. > >Is that true ? [ snip ] >It is one of only 3 organisations who perform these functions world-wide." [ snip ] Jim, I believe that the three organisations are refering to APNIC, ARIN and RIPE. Could be four with AFRINIC ... Regards, Pindar PS: Apologies for not pruning the cc-list, which is getting a tad long. * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 00:50:09 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA20555 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:50:09 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id AAA20551 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:50:01 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA00564; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:52:47 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80B7.FF2C3660@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:47:18 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80B7.FF2C3660@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'ARIN list'" , "'Pindar Wong'" Cc: "'Adam Todd'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Is APNIC Only One of Three ? Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:47:17 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Saturday, May 16, 1998 6:41 PM, Pindar Wong[SMTP:pindar@HK.Super.NET] wrote: @ @I believe that the three organisations are refering to APNIC, ARIN and RIPE. @ Yes, I assumed that was the three...that was not the question... What about the IANA (or IANA Inc.)? What about all of the LIRs of RIPE ? What about the companies that now are dividing up their /8s ? What about @Home ? What about AT&T and their 12.0.0.0 ? http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/html/nanog/msg02336.html - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 01:14:30 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id BAA20740 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 01:14:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id BAA20733 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 01:14:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA00615; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:17:12 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80BB.6808F8A0@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:11:42 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80BB.6808F8A0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'ARIN list'" Cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" Subject: [apnic-talk] Domain Names and IP Addresses Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:11:41 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Many Internet leaders have tried to baffle government officials by misleading them into thinking that domain names and IP address allocations have nothing to do with each other. Over and over this "party line" has been played out on mailing lists whenever people want to try to end conversations they do not like. I have made the point several times that I think that Internet Governance should begin from the base of TLDs via a structured root. This distributes the control to a diverse world-wide community. People who do not want to give up control do not like this plan. Instead, they return to the "party line" that IP addresses and domain names are separate. This is hardly the case. As we have seen with RIPE and now APNIC, the organizations which claim to be IP addresses only, end up in the middle of domain name issues[1]. They are able to make policies and make them stick because they hold IP address resource allocation as a lever. In summary, while the leaders are telling people that IP address resources and domain names are disjoint they are working to set policies that impact both. I claim that they have tried to separate the population in a divide and conquer strategy but this has not worked. The U.S. Government has easily been able to see that Internet Resource management includes many things and they are intricately tied together. Jim Fleming ====== [1] @ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/vital_stats.htm#c1 "Whether the Executive Council should make the final decision on whether an organization requesting the xxNIC.NET domain is appropriate for delegation to occur after which the Executive Council agreed that it was their responsibility to make the decision;" ... "Whether APNIC should contribute and/or support a survey of national top level domains in the AP region, after which the decision was in the affirmative;" @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 01:41:07 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id BAA20977 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 01:41:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id BAA20972 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 01:41:01 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA00664; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:43:44 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80BF.1CC93860@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:38:14 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80BF.1CC93860@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" , "'Adam Todd'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Barry Raveendran Greene'" , "'cgomes@internic.net'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" Cc: "'laina@singnet.com.sg'" , "'ARIN list'" , "'Pindar Wong'" , "'Jon Postel'" , "'Richard J. Sexton'" Subject: [apnic-talk] Why is the APNIC in the Domain Name Business ? Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:38:11 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Why is the APNIC in the business of reserving .NET domain names and deciding who should get them and who should not ? Isn't this domain name speculation ? Also...what country code does "AP" stand for ? By the convention being established below xxNIC.NET implies that AP is the country code. Has the APNIC.NET given itself a special exception ? @@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/resource_status.htm#c4_1 "In addition, as an attempt to promote a common naming system for national Network Information Centers in the AP region, APNIC reserved xxNIC.NET domain names where "xx" is the 2-letter ISO-3166 country code for countries in Asia and the Pacific Rim. As a result, APNIC has the authority to delegates these xxNIC.NET domains to appropriate organizations in the Asia and Pacific Rim regions and this delegation authority rests with the APNIC Executive Council. To date, the following xxNIC.NET domains have been delegated: THNIC.NET AUNIC.NET KRNIC.NET TWNIC.NET JPNIC.NET MYNIC.NET Requests have been received in the past for TONIC.NET (Tonga), CNNIC.NET (China), SGNIC.NET (Singapore), PHNIC.NET (Philippines), INNIC.NET (India), IDNIC.NET (Indonesia), LKNIC.NET (Sri Lanka), VNNIC.NET (Viet Nam) and PKNIC.NET (Pakistan), however no additional delegations have yet occurred as the organizations in question did not meet the criteria (i.e., obtain a "rough consensus" of the Internet community in the country in question and/or represent the government of the country in question directly) for the delegation to occur prior to the end of 1997." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Also...why would the APNIC be deciding on the above countries if the IANA (old or new) has already delegated a TLD to someone in the country ? Does this mean that the APNIC does not agree with the IANA selections and blocks these countries from getting domain names ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 03:03:30 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id DAA21813 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 03:03:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id DAA21808 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 03:03:22 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA00761; Sat, 16 May 1998 13:06:02 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80CA.9C259620@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 13:00:32 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80CA.9C259620@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'ARIN list'" Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Daniel Karrenberg'" , "'David Farber'" , "'Hilarie Orman'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" Cc: "'Karl Denninger'" , "'John C Klensin'" , "'Jon Postel'" , "'Steve Wolff'" Subject: [apnic-talk] APNIC IPv4 Address Allocations Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:00:31 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk According to the APNIC Annual Report, the data base of information is not accurate[1]. Despite this, the APNIC received an additional allocation of over 16 million IPv4 addresses in April of 1997. That appears to be the same time that the APNIC paid the IANA $50,000 in service fees. This also appears to be at a time when the APNIC had not used the addresses it already had. Why does a private company like APNIC, set up in an off-shore haven like the Seychelles, and operating out of Tokyo, with apparently no taxes being paid to Japan[2], be allowed to obtain additional IPv4 address space with apparently no justification and an admission of poor record keeping while U.S. ISPs and other companies around the world are put through the ringer for a few IPv4 addresses ? Jim Fleming ================================================== http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/resource_status.htm#c4_1 Percentage Used ------------------------- 0% 61.x.x.x <-------- April 25, 1997 0% 169.208.x.x 0% 169.209.x.x 0% 169.210.x.x 0% 169.211.x.x 0% 169.212.x.x 0% 169.213.x.x 0% 169.214.x.x 0% 169.215.x.x 80% 202.x.x.x 80% 203.x.x.x 12% 210.x.x.x 12% 211.x.x.x @@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/financial_status.htm#c3_2 "Service fees which consisted of the APNIC payment of US $50,000 to the IANA in April, 1997;" @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ [1] @@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/future_directions.htm#c6_1 "Database Cleanup The current registry database system is has significant amounts of incorrect data. This is a significant issue as the registry database is intended to be the location of authoritative information on which organizations control which resources. It is likely that unless the registry database system is revised, conflicts will arise when organizations attempt to obtain Internet connectivity with historically allocated resources but which no longer have up to date information in the registry database." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ [2] @@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/other_activities.htm#c5_2 "APNIC Headquarters Relocation Around first quarter 1997, APNIC began to investigate what would be required to hire additional staff for the APNIC office in Japan. After lengthy consultations with various organizations, it was established that the question of whether APNIC needed to pay tax in Japan was somewhat indeterminate. Specifically, according to two of three accountancy firms, APNIC should pay taxes, while the third indicated exactly the opposite. After significant discussion, it was decided to evaluate the costs of doing business in Japan vis-a-vis doing business in other Asia or Pacific Rim locations." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 05:08:03 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id FAA23710 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 05:08:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from matjes.koerber.org (root@matjes.koerber.org [203.127.219.241]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id FAA23682; Sun, 17 May 1998 05:06:25 +0900 (JST) Received: from vademecum.singnet.com.sg (dialup150.dreieich.nacamar.de [195.52.255.150]) by matjes.koerber.org (8.8.8/8.8.2) with SMTP id EAA11710; Sun, 17 May 1998 04:08:35 +0800 From: Mathias Koerber Message-Id: <19980517040844mathias@staff.singnet.com.sg@vademecum.singnet.com.sg> Date: Sun May 17 04:08:44 1998 Content-Type: text/plain To: JimFleming@unety.net, naipr@arin.net Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: ARIN's View of Magaziner's DCISOC Appearance Cc: apnic-talk@apnic.net, apple@apnic.net, tld-wg@ripe.net X-Mailer: Pronto97 E-Mail [ver 4.01] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk This is not ARINs view of his comments, but a synopsis of his remarks. Your subject line was misleading, but the article itself was interesting, so thanks for reporting it here... > > @@@@@@ http://www.arin.net/archives/arin-members.9805 > > >From owner-arin-members Wed May 13 21:38:09 1998 > Received: (from majordom@localhost) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) id VAA28293 > > for arin-members-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:38:09 GMT > Received: (from pdenitto@localhost) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) id VAA28288 > > for arin-members@arin.net; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:38:08 GMT > Received: from localhost (memsvcs@localhost) by arin.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) > with > SMTP id VAA28264 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:36:49 > GMT > Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:36:49 -0400 (EDT) > From: Member Services > To: arin-members@arin.net > Subject: Remarks by Ira Magaziner to DCISOC > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Sender: owner-arin-members@arin.net > Precedence: bulk > > A Synopsis of Remarks Made by Ira Magaziner on the Topic of Internet > Governance > > Monday evening, May 11, 1998, Ira Magaziner, Senior Advisor to the > President for Policy Development, spoke on the topic of Internet > Governance before an audience assembled by the DC chapter of the > Internet > Society. His presentation addressed the subject from the perspective of > the U.S. Government and re-enforced previously stated positions that > support the decentralization and privatization of the Internet. > > It has been several months since the Green Paper (Improvement of > Technical > Management of Internet Names and Addresses) was published. During that > period, some 1500 pages of commentary, submitted in response to that > paper, have been reviewed and evaluated. By the end of this week, or > early > next week, Magaziner promised, the government will publish a White > Paper, > incorporating some of the suggestions submitted by the Internet community. > This would be "the implementing draft" for the upcoming transition. > While > carefully not divulging information in advance of publication, Magaziner's > presentation provided some insight into the general approach that the > government intends to take in the area of Internet governance. > > Referencing recent history and the role that government agencies played > in > launching the Internet, he told the group that the government still has > a > legal obligation with respect to Internet Governance but is eager to > effect a smooth transition that minimizes its future involvement. In the > past, he said, a technology of this sort would invite centralized > inter-governmental control. He illustrated this point with references to > industries such as telephone, radio and television. A highly regulatory > approach "does not make sense" today, according to Magaziner. Instead, > he > described the vision of the U.S. Government for the Internet as it > proceeds forward as relying on private sector leadership that is > decentralized and international in nature. > > Describing the non-profit organization that would assume responsibility > for Internet governance as the government's role was phased out, > Magaziner > outlined four areas of responsibility falling under that authority. The > first of these is the assigning of Internet Protocol (IP) address blocks > to the numbering authorities. The second area would be policy > decision-making in Domain Name issues and the third would be oversight > of > the management of root servers. The fourth area of responsibility would > be > the establishment of Internet protocol under IETF guidelines. > > One issue that emerged clearly from Magaziner's remarks is the > government's position that in the future, Domain Name registration > should > involve competition among registrars with shared access to generic > top-level domains. No specific details regarding plans for accomplishing > this goal were presented. > > The composition of the governing organization, based on the information > provided Monday evening, will closely resemble the structure outlined in > the original green paper. The government will recommend the inclusion > of > representatives from ARIN, RIPE, and APNIC on the Board. The government, > he emphasized, would not appoint the Board but would "recognize" the > Board > appointed by the Stakeholders. > > Elaborating on the nature of the appointed Board, Magaziner set forth > certain conditions that the new organization must meet to succeed. > First, > he said that the new organization must operate in a transparent manner > with by-laws that allow it to "re-form itself." It is also important for > the new organization to be incorporated under one legal authority to > ensure stability and hopefully avoid having questions settled by "twenty > different courts around the world." The new non-profit entity responsible > for governance must have the legal authority and credibility to withstand > the "inevitable lawsuits" that will occur. It must, he said, "be robust > enough to go forward." > > In addition, Magaziner said that the organization itself must be > international in scope and Stakeholder based. He expressed his belief > that > the European stakeholders have also accepted the underlying principles > behind the new governance structures and that consensus has been > achieved > in many important areas of concern. > > He is hopeful that by late summer, the new organization will get > underway. > He indicated that NSI's contract would not be renewed but that > negotiations with NSI would begin quickly following the issuance of the > white paper. The transition will occur, but the timetable will be > determined by events. The sooner the new organization becomes stable, > the > sooner the government will withdraw from an active role. The stability > of > the Internet is at stake and the government recognizes its responsibility > and authority to ensure that stability. The white paper will provide the > rules to bring about the transfer of control. > > In his remarks, Magaziner emphasized the need for balance in addressing > the multiple issues that presently confront the Internet community. > Issues > of taxes, tariffs, privacy, and intellectual property, he acknowledged, > create complexity and will require international consensus. > > Recognizing in his concluding remarks that none of us fully understands > what is happening as we enter this transition period, Magaziner indicated > that at least "we know enough to understand that we do not understand." > The key, he said, is in the creation of structures that are flexible > enough to evolve. He is also hopeful that groups of people willing to > take > on these challenges will emerge to take on leadership roles. > > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ > > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > * APPLe: To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net * * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 05:16:10 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id FAA23780 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 05:16:10 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id FAA23766; Sun, 17 May 1998 05:15:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA00903; Sat, 16 May 1998 15:18:46 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD80DD.27680C60@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 15:13:17 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD80DD.27680C60@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "JimFleming@unety.net" , "'Mathias Koerber'" , "naipr@arin.net" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "apple@apnic.net" , "tld-wg@ripe.net" Subject: [apnic-talk] RE: ARIN's View of Magaziner's DCISOC Appearance Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 15:13:16 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Saturday, May 16, 1998 11:08 PM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staff.singnet.com.sg] wrote: @This is not ARINs view of his comments, but a synopsis of his remarks. @Your subject line was misleading, but the article itself was interesting, @so thanks for reporting it here... @ @> From: Member Services @> To: arin-members@arin.net @> Subject: Remarks by Ira Magaziner to DCISOC It was from ARIN's Member Services is that not from ARIN ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 06:00:52 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id GAA24328 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 06:00:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from www.ah.net (root@www.ah.net [203.21.205.89]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id GAA24324 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 06:00:46 +0900 (JST) Received: from alpha.ah.net (alpha.ah.net [203.21.204.10]) by www.ah.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA03851; Sun, 17 May 1998 07:02:26 GMT Received: from at (at.alpha.ah.net [203.21.204.18]) by alpha.ah.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id GAA12535; Sun, 17 May 1998 06:59:49 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980517065536.01efb100@alpha.ah.net> X-Sender: at@alpha.ah.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 06:55:36 +1000 To: Jim Fleming From: Adam Todd Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: Why is the APNIC in the Domain Name Business ? Cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'Tony Rutkowski'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Barry Raveendran Greene'" , "'cgomes@internic.net'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" In-Reply-To: <01BD80BF.1CC93860@webster.unir.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk >Requests have been received in the past for TONIC.NET (Tonga), >CNNIC.NET (China), SGNIC.NET (Singapore), PHNIC.NET (Philippines), >INNIC.NET (India), IDNIC.NET (Indonesia), LKNIC.NET (Sri Lanka), >VNNIC.NET (Viet Nam) and PKNIC.NET (Pakistan), however no additional OZNIC.NET We no longer have a functional AUNIC, at least it doesn't handle any IP addresses any more and is looking at relinquishing (said loosely) GOV.AU and EDU.AU, not that it should have ANYTHING to do with Domain Names anyway - really. AUNIC is also reposible for creating and distributing the .AU Zone file as well as COM.AU, INFO.AU, GOV.AU and EDU.AU. NET.AU, ASN.AU and ID.AU are all administered by ISPs (directly or indirectly) Talk about nepotism. THE DOMAIN NAME HANDBOOK http://www.domainhandbook.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The advice offered in this email is not considered professional advice, or it would be accompanied by an invoice. No permission is granted for republication of comments, without written consent. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Business Development, Technology Domain Registration and Network Advisory Telstra Convey Member AURSC http://www.aursc.ah.net Adam Todd Personal http://adamtodd.ah.net at@aus or at@ah.net http://adam.says.sheesh Phone +61 2 9729 0565 Network http://www.ah.net AU Internet News http://www.ah.net/lists/lwgate/INTERNET/ AU Internet User Mail List http://www.ah.net/lists/lwgate/OZ-USER/ * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 10:40:03 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id KAA26449 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 10:40:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA26445 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 10:39:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA01155; Sat, 16 May 1998 20:42:39 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD810A.65D5AC00@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 20:37:09 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD810A.65D5AC00@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'charles mueller'" Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" , "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" Cc: "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" , "'lir-wg@ripe.net'" , "'ARIN list'" , "'Richard J. Sexton'" Subject: [apnic-talk] The Registry Industry Implosion or Explosion Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 20:37:08 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Charles, Your comments on monopolies[1] can be applied to the Registry Industry which is currently going through its early development years. Of special interest is the notion of *implosion*. I am not sure I agree that implosion comes from size and bloat. Instead, it can come from consumer rejection of a system that taxes them to a point where they walk away or "route around the damage" using one of the Internet slogans. It appears that the Registry Industry is about to go through a serious period of implosion. The U.S. Government has spent a considerable amount of time and energy studying the Registry Industry and they are now poised to start getting it under control. Unfortunately, it appears that their solutions for controlling the industry will NOT result in expanding competition but instead will focus on bringing the small group of insiders into a small common structure that will allow the U.S. Government to watch them with a large spot-light. This will likely make the structure implode because these insiders have not been used to any scrutiny and have moved freely from one place on the planet to another with little or no government supervision. As people try to escape this government scrutiny, the small circle of insiders will get smaller and consumers will have a clearer picture of what is happening under the hot lights of that big spot-light. The combination of consumer exodus and participant exodus makes the structure implode. At several points in this process it appeared that the U.S. Government was going to support helping to make the Registry Industry an *explosive" situation. It should not be surprising that the industry insiders recommended against this because this would have pulled their small power structure apart as the big bang expansion occurred and companies moved away from the small circle of friends that control all of the resources. It should not be surprising that given a choice between an implosive solution and an explosive plan the U.S. Government would opt for the implosive approach. There are several reasons for this: 1. The U.S. Government can control the implosive plan. 2. The implosive approach does not frighten people. 3. The explosive approach could be unpredictable. 4. The explosive approach allows people off the hook. 5. The implosive approach requires far less understanding of the industry on the part of the U.S. Government. 6. The implosive approach does NOT preclude the explosive approach to happen at the edges. The last 2 points are probably the most compelling reasons why the U.S. Government will opt to control the Registry Industry to a point where it implodes as opposed to becoming involved in explosive strategies. They do not have the time and energy to really understand the Registry Industry and while they "help" the insiders implode other people can work to facilitate the expansion of a new Registry Industry at the edges and the U.S. Government can stand back and watch with little or no effort or knowledge required. In summary, you and others might be mistaking the apparent support of the U.S. Government for monopolies with the U.S. Government's two pronged approach to the problem. One, round up the monopolists into smaller and smaller cliques and watch them carefully while, two, taking a hands-off approach to the people and companies that offer explosive solutions that may catch on if the clique is not allowed to expand. Unfortunately, this does not look good because it gives the appearance that the U.S. Government is devoting all of its resources to the monopolists. This is no different than what happens on school yards all around the world. The teachers spend their time rounding up the small number of children that misbehave to watch them carefully, while the other children are left unsupervised to grow and prosper. It is unfortunate that all of these systems favor the approach where resources are spent on the small minority of monopolists that cause the majority of society to suffer by denying them more explosive opportunities. The key to moving forward is for society to understand what the U.S. Government is doing to provide them freedom to provide something better. If that happens then the majority of resources will be shifted to the explosive solutions which is the way it should be. Jim Fleming ====== [1] On Saturday, May 16, 1998 3:29 PM, charles mueller[SMTP:cmueller@metrolink.net] wrote: @ A century after a gang of Robber Barons successfully monopolized the @U.S. economy under the slogan, 'Monopoly Is Efficient,' we're seeing a @reenactment under precisely the same banner. We never learn. Over 200 @years ago, Adam Smith was quite clear that, far from being a fount of @efficiency, monopoly is the mother of bloat: "Monopoly, besides, is a great @enemy of good management, which can never be universally established but in @consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to @have recourse to it for the sake of self-defence." @ @ Bloated costs are an inevitable effect of economic monopoly and, @with those inflated costs, monopolies have no choice but to charge @higher-than-competitive prices, thus imposing on the public what Smith aptly @characterizes as a 'private tax,' one levied precisely in the interest of @economic INefficiency: "It is for the most worthless of all purposes too @that they [consumers] are taxed in this manner. It is merely to enable the @[monopoly] to support the negligence, profusion, and malversation of their @own servants [managers and employees], whose disorderly conduct seldom @allows the dividend of the company to exceed the ordinary rate of profit in @trades which are altogether free, and very frequently makes it fall even a @good deal short of that rate." In time, monopolies implode, becoming so @bloated that--even with their inflated prices--they can't earn even a @normal, competitive profit. U.S. Steel, IBM, GM, Xerox, Sears, the list @goes on. @ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 13:35:33 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id NAA27585 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 13:35:33 +0900 (JST) Received: from singapura.singnet.com.sg (singapura.singnet.com.sg [165.21.10.10]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id NAA27580 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 13:35:26 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (cwl@localhost) by singapura.singnet.com.sg (8.8.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA15059; Sun, 17 May 1998 12:37:18 +0800 (SST) X-Authentication-Warning: singapura.singnet.com.sg: cwl owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 12:37:18 +0800 (SST) From: "Chang, Wai-Leong" To: Jim Fleming cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT In-Reply-To: <01BD80AE.8A8B6D20@webster.unir.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Urgggg, waste of my time. looks like you have a hidden agenda in posting the first question in the first place. If you have an issue with David Conrad, email to him direct and do not use this list for your propaganda. regards Chang Wai Leong SingNet Operation On Sat, 16 May 1998, Jim Fleming wrote: > On Saturday, May 16, 1998 5:40 PM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] wrote: > @ > @> As for the question, how are APRICOT and APNIC > @> linked financially ? Maybe the question should be... > @> > @> "Does David Conrad have a financial interest in > @> both APNIC and APRICOT ?" > @> > @ > @You sure or not ? > @APRICOT is just a operation seminar organised once a year for the Asia. > @What has that got to do with David Conrad ? > @ > > Why don't you ask David Conrad ? > > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 13:39:04 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id NAA27616 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 13:39:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA27612 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 13:38:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA01350; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:41:53 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8123.6FC40E00@webster.unir.net>; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:36:23 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8123.6FC40E00@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" Cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 23:36:22 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 7:37 AM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] wrote: @ @Urgggg, waste of my time. looks like you have a hidden agenda in posting @the first question in the first place. If you have an issue with David @Conrad, email to him direct and do not use this list for your propaganda. @ The information you provided does not seem to be accurate. Has that wasted people's time ? Further research shows that there is a lot of financial linkage between APNIC and APRICOT. Will that continue once APNIC is moved to Australia ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 13:51:31 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id NAA27695 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 13:51:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from singapura.singnet.com.sg (singapura.singnet.com.sg [165.21.10.10]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id NAA27691 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 13:51:26 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (cwl@localhost) by singapura.singnet.com.sg (8.8.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA10236; Sun, 17 May 1998 12:53:18 +0800 (SST) X-Authentication-Warning: singapura.singnet.com.sg: cwl owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 12:53:18 +0800 (SST) From: "Chang, Wai-Leong" To: Jim Fleming cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT In-Reply-To: <01BD8123.6FC40E00@webster.unir.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk I have a suggestion. Join them in organising the 99 seminar/workshop and you will know the details then. Many ISPs in the region had benefited tremendously from APRICOT and for about US$500 per person, that is knowledge for a song. I have attended the ones held in Singapore and HK. Great stuff.... regards Chang Wai Leong SingNet Operation On Sat, 16 May 1998, Jim Fleming wrote: > On Sunday, May 17, 1998 7:37 AM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] wrote: > @ > @Urgggg, waste of my time. looks like you have a hidden agenda in posting > @the first question in the first place. If you have an issue with David > @Conrad, email to him direct and do not use this list for your propaganda. > @ > > The information you provided does not seem to be accurate. > Has that wasted people's time ? > > Further research shows that there is a lot of financial linkage > between APNIC and APRICOT. > > Will that continue once APNIC is moved to Australia ? > > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 14:04:21 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id OAA27801 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:04:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA27796 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:04:12 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA01398; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:06:56 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8126.EF7B0880@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:01:26 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8126.EF7B0880@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" Cc: "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" Cc: "'ARIN list'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 00:01:25 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 7:53 AM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] wrote: @ @I have a suggestion. Join them in organising the 99 seminar/workshop and @you will know the details then. Many ISPs in the region had benefited @tremendously from APRICOT and for about US$500 per person, that is @knowledge for a song. I have attended the ones held in Singapore and HK. @Great stuff.... @ You are missing the point. I am sure it is great stuff. With 99 seminars and workshops it should be able to pay for itself. Taxes from IPv4 address allocations should not be used to subsidize that operation. Does APRICOT plan to pay APNIC back ? Also, if people are "employed" by both APNIC and APRICOT money can be transferred from APNIC to APRICOT to pay them. This can create a false impression on the books of APNIC because people might assume that people are paid a token salary when they are really receiving compensation via money taken out of APNIC and used to subsidize other activities, like APRICOT. Besides the money there is the influence that comes with IPv4 address allocations. Are companies told they will get IP allocations if they support APRICOT ? Is that why APRICOT is a success ? Are IPv4 addresses obtained from the U.S. Government being used to influence other activities ? Furthermore, some of the people that have been paid to participate in APRICOT are also influential in the U.S. in making sure that APNIC gets IPv4 addresses. Do we now have a situation where IPv4 addresses are sent to APNIC where they are "sold/leased" and then the money is transferred to APRICOT to pay for these people to fly to the Asia/Pacific region for meetings and seminars ? If this is the case, then IPv4 addresses are being bartered for other goods, services, trips, etc. This is not something U.S. Government contractors should be doing in my opinion. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 14:16:41 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id OAA27943 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:16:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from singapura.singnet.com.sg (singapura.singnet.com.sg [165.21.10.10]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA27938 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:16:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (cwl@localhost) by singapura.singnet.com.sg (8.8.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id NAA22746; Sun, 17 May 1998 13:18:09 +0800 (SST) X-Authentication-Warning: singapura.singnet.com.sg: cwl owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 13:18:09 +0800 (SST) From: "Chang, Wai-Leong" To: Jim Fleming cc: "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" , "'ARIN list'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT In-Reply-To: <01BD8126.EF7B0880@webster.unir.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sun, 17 May 1998, Jim Fleming wrote: > On Sunday, May 17, 1998 7:53 AM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] wrote: > @ > @I have a suggestion. Join them in organising the 99 seminar/workshop and > @you will know the details then. Many ISPs in the region had benefited > @tremendously from APRICOT and for about US$500 per person, that is > @knowledge for a song. I have attended the ones held in Singapore and HK. > @Great stuff.... > @ > > You are missing the point. I am sure it is great stuff. With > 99 seminars and workshops it should be able to pay for > itself. Taxes from IPv4 address allocations should not be > used to subsidize that operation. Does APRICOT plan to > pay APNIC back ? > > Also, if people are "employed" by both APNIC and APRICOT > money can be transferred from APNIC to APRICOT to pay > them. This can create a false impression on the books of > APNIC because people might assume that people are paid > a token salary when they are really receiving compensation > via money taken out of APNIC and used to subsidize other > activities, like APRICOT. You are missing my point. I am saying go ask them direct. You will not get any answer here. > > Besides the money there is the influence that comes with > IPv4 address allocations. Are companies told they will get > IP allocations if they support APRICOT ? Is that why APRICOT > is a success ? Are IPv4 addresses obtained from the > U.S. Government being used to influence other activities ? > Obviously, you have not attended any of the APRICOT sessions. Its success has nothing to do with IP address. On the contrary, it will be a failure if it is only about IP address. I do know for one that there is nothing of the "implied" situation you have above. > Furthermore, some of the people that have been paid to > participate in APRICOT are also influential in the U.S. > in making sure that APNIC gets IPv4 addresses. Do we > now have a situation where IPv4 addresses are sent to > APNIC where they are "sold/leased" and then the money > is transferred to APRICOT to pay for these people to fly > to the Asia/Pacific region for meetings and seminars ? > > If this is the case, then IPv4 addresses are being bartered > for other goods, services, trips, etc. This is not something > U.S. Government contractors should be doing in my opinion. > Again, you will not get any of your questions answered here. Write to them direct and you may get some feedback. > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 14:18:41 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id OAA27962 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:18:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA27956 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:18:35 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA01442; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:21:26 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8128.F650B040@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:15:56 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8128.F650B040@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" Cc: "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" Cc: "'ARIN list'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 00:15:55 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 8:18 AM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] wrote: @ @You are missing my point. I am saying go ask them direct. You will not get @any answer here. @ Is this because you have no answers or because discussing these matters may result in you not getting IP allocations ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 14:25:45 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id OAA28048 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:25:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from sunnm.ism.ac.jp (sunnm.ism.ac.jp [133.58.1.18]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA28043; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:25:39 +0900 (JST) Received: by sunnm.ism.ac.jp (5.67+1.6W/2.08subd-mx) id AA01190; Sun, 17 May 98 14:28:11 JST Date: Sun, 17 May 98 14:28:11 JST Message-Id: <9805170528.AA01190@sunnm.ism.ac.jp> To: JimFleming@unety.net Cc: APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, arin-council@arin.net, naipr@arin.net, at@ah.net, bala@apic.net, BBURR@ntia.doc.gov, davidc@apnic.net, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov, jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-Reply-To: <01BD7FFA.32F35000@webster.unir.net> (message from Jim Fleming on Fri, 15 May 1998 12:08:39 -0500) Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents From: maruyama@nic.ad.jp (MARUYAMA Naomasa) Reply-To: maruyama@nic.ad.jp Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk >From: Jim Fleming >Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:08:39 -0500 >Your bravery to make these comments restores my faith >in humanity. I have had similar concerns. People will note >that my questions went un-answered. "Humanity"? Well, probably I can agree with you in the sense that human being tends to rationalize one's behavior without paying any attention to offending other people. Such "humanity" is sometime called "egoism", and I feel your recent articles in APNIC-TALK are such ones, and they seem to have no productive meaning in the current discussion. It is quite likely that everyone ignores your articles to save their time. I think APNIC were run, and is running very democratically. The problem here to be discussed is how we can legally implement APNIC activity for continuing democratic operation so far. The points I wrote in the previous messages are about the legal framework, not current operation of APNIC. ---- N. Maruyama (Vice President of JPNIC) maruyama@nic.ad.jp * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 14:34:42 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id OAA28138 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:34:42 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA28131; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:34:33 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA01475; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:37:24 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD812B.31230F40@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:31:54 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD812B.31230F40@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'" Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "arin-council@arin.net" , "at@ah.net" , "bala@apic.net" , "BBURR@ntia.doc.gov" , "davidc@apnic.net" Cc: "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov" , "jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" Cc: "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" , "naipr@arin.net" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 00:31:53 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 9:28 AM, MARUYAMA Naomasa[SMTP:maruyama@nic.ad.jp] wrote: @ @I think APNIC were run, and is running very democratically. The @problem here to be discussed is how we can legally implement APNIC @activity for continuing democratic operation so far. The points I @wrote in the previous messages are about the legal framework, not @current operation of APNIC. @ So, your concern is that when APNIC moves to Australia it might not be run in a democratic way ? What do you think about the new APNIC now being run as a "for-profit" operation ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 14:38:47 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id OAA28203 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:38:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA28197; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:38:40 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA01485; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:41:31 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD812B.C4656C80@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 00:36:01 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD812B.C4656C80@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'" Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "arin-council@arin.net" , "at@ah.net" , "bala@apic.net" , "BBURR@ntia.doc.gov" , "davidc@apnic.net" Cc: "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov" , "jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" Cc: "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" , "naipr@arin.net" Subject: [apnic-talk] APNIC Employees Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 00:36:00 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 9:28 AM, MARUYAMA Naomasa[SMTP:maruyama@nic.ad.jp] wrote: @>From: Jim Fleming @>Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:08:39 -0500 @ @>Your bravery to make these comments restores my faith @>in humanity. I have had similar concerns. People will note @>that my questions went un-answered. @ @"Humanity"? @ Speaking of humanity... How do current APNIC employees report their income taxes ? The company is based in the off-shore have of the Seychelles but it appears to operate from borrowed space in Tokyo. What tax jurisdiction do the APNIC employees fall under ? It seemed clear that one of the reasons that APNIC is moving to Australia is to avoid taxes in Japan. Are those corporate taxes or taxes on personal income ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 15:06:47 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA28710 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:06:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA28668; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:04:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA01542; Sun, 17 May 1998 01:07:19 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD812F.5EE42D20@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 01:01:49 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD812F.5EE42D20@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'" Cc: "'Tony Rutkowski'" , "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "'APPLe '" , "arin-council@arin.net" , "at@ah.net" , "bala@apic.net" Cc: "BBURR@ntia.doc.gov" , "davidc@apnic.net" , "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov" Cc: "jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" , "'laina@singnet.com.sg'" , "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" , "naipr@arin.net" Subject: [apnic-talk] Bounding APNIC's Money Flow Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 01:01:48 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk I hope that you agree that APNIC is leasing/selling assets provided by the U.S. Government, namely IPv4 addresses. That makes APNIC special in some people's minds, especially U.S. taxpayers. For APNIC to be financially coupled to APRICOT opens the door for money to flow from the IP address business to other businesses. This does not seem to be a good thing. If that is allowed to happen, then assets from the U.S. Government are used to control the commerce in the rest of the region. In my opinion, there should be a money barrier as shown below. ==================== http://www.apnic.net ==== money barrier ===== http://www.apricot.net/ http://www.apia.org/report.htm http://www.getit.org/founder.htm http://www.itu.int http://www.iana.org - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 15:44:07 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA29082 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:44:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA29075; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:44:00 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA01610; Sun, 17 May 1998 01:46:52 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8134.E5A32A00@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 01:41:22 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8134.E5A32A00@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'MARUYAMA Naomasa'" Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "arin-council@arin.net" , "at@ah.net" , "bala@apic.net" , "BBURR@ntia.doc.gov" , "davidc@apnic.net" Cc: "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov" , "jwkckid1@IX.NETCOM.COM" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" Cc: "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" , "naipr@arin.net" Subject: [apnic-talk] APNIC Funding For APRICOT Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 01:41:21 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk According to the following... http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/other_activities.htm#c5_1 APRICOT 1997 cost $318,030.68. Can you provide similar information for APRICOT 1998 and also information on how much APNIC money was spent on each person below ? @@@@@ http://www.apricot.net/html/instructors.html Eric Allman Butch Anton Robert J. Berger Scott Bradner <------ ARIN David Conrad <------ APNIC Gene Deutsch Barb Dijker Paul Ferguson Stewart Forster Barbara Fraser Laina Raveendran Greene <--- APIA Geoff Huston <--------- APNIC Hugh Irvine Andrew Khoo Anne Lord <---- APNIC (RIPE) Ron Masson Evi Nemeth Sam Ramadan Danny Smith Philip Smith Paul Vixie @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 17:44:48 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id RAA01216 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 17:44:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from matjes.koerber.org (root@matjes.koerber.org [203.127.219.241]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA01153; Sun, 17 May 1998 17:42:40 +0900 (JST) Received: from vademecum.singnet.com.sg (dialup243.hamburg.nacamar.de [195.52.255.243]) by matjes.koerber.org (8.8.8/8.8.2) with SMTP id QAA13370; Sun, 17 May 1998 16:45:03 +0800 From: Mathias Koerber Message-Id: <19980517164504mathias@staff.singnet.com.sg@vademecum.singnet.com.sg> Date: Sun May 17 16:45:04 1998 Content-Type: text/plain To: JimFleming@unety.net, JimFleming@unety.net, mathias@staff.singnet.com.sg, naipr@arin.net Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: RE: ARIN's View of Magaziner's DCISOC Appearance Cc: apnic-talk@apnic.net, apple@apnic.net, tld-wg@ripe.net X-Mailer: Pronto97 E-Mail [ver 4.01] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk > On Saturday, May 16, 1998 11:08 PM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staff.sin > gnet.com.sg] wrote: > @This is not ARINs view of his comments, but a synopsis of his remarks. > @Your subject line was misleading, but the article itself was interesting, > @so thanks for reporting it here... > @ > > @> From: Member Services > @> To: arin-members@arin.net > @> Subject: Remarks by Ira Magaziner to DCISOC > > It was from ARIN's Member Services is that not from ARIN ? Sure, but it did not contain anything akin to their VIEW of things, only a report of what was said. No ARIN opinion was voiced in that piece! > > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 17:46:57 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id RAA01280 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 17:46:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA01221; Sun, 17 May 1998 17:44:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA03373; Sun, 17 May 1998 03:47:51 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8145.CC0BE4E0@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 03:42:21 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8145.CC0BE4E0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Mathias Koerber'" , "naipr@arin.net" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "apple@apnic.net" , "tld-wg@ripe.net" Subject: [apnic-talk] RE: RE: ARIN's View of Magaziner's DCISOC Appearance Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 03:42:20 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 11:45 AM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staff.singnet.com.sg] wrote: @> On Saturday, May 16, 1998 11:08 PM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staff.sin @> gnet.com.sg] wrote: @> @This is not ARINs view of his comments, but a synopsis of his remarks. @> @Your subject line was misleading, but the article itself was interesting, @> @so thanks for reporting it here... @> @ @> @> @> From: Member Services @> @> To: arin-members@arin.net @> @> Subject: Remarks by Ira Magaziner to DCISOC @> @> It was from ARIN's Member Services is that not from ARIN ? @ @Sure, but it did not contain anything akin to their VIEW of things, @only a report of what was said. No ARIN opinion was voiced in that piece! @ Who wrote the material ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 17 18:32:05 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id SAA02524 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 17 May 1998 18:32:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from matjes.koerber.org (root@matjes.koerber.org [203.127.219.241]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA02482; Sun, 17 May 1998 18:30:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from vademecum.singnet.com.sg (dialup203.hamburg.nacamar.de [195.52.255.203]) by matjes.koerber.org (8.8.8/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA13507; Sun, 17 May 1998 17:32:24 +0800 From: Mathias Koerber Message-Id: <19980517173239mathias@staff.singnet.com.sg@vademecum.singnet.com.sg> Date: Sun May 17 17:32:39 1998 Content-Type: text/plain To: JimFleming@unety.net, mathias@staff.singnet.com.sg, naipr@arin.net Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: RE: RE: ARIN's View of Magaziner's DCISOC Appearance Cc: apnic-talk@apnic.net, apple@apnic.net, tld-wg@ripe.net X-Mailer: Pronto97 E-Mail [ver 4.01] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk > On Sunday, May 17, 1998 11:45 AM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staff.singn > et.com.sg] wrote: > @> On Saturday, May 16, 1998 11:08 PM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staff. > sin > @> gnet.com.sg] wrote: > @> @This is not ARINs view of his comments, but a synopsis of his > remarks. > @> @Your subject line was misleading, but the article itself was > interesting, > @> @so thanks for reporting it here... > @> @ > @> > @> @> From: Member Services > @> @> To: arin-members@arin.net > @> @> Subject: Remarks by Ira Magaziner to DCISOC > @> > @> It was from ARIN's Member Services is that not from ARIN ? > @ > @Sure, but it did not contain anything akin to their VIEW of things, > @only a report of what was said. No ARIN opinion was voiced in that > piece! > @ > > Who wrote the material ? What does the material contain? A report or an opinion. Whose words are reported? > > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 00:22:39 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA05692 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:22:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id AAA05676; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:22:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA03683; Sun, 17 May 1998 10:24:58 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD817D.46596240@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 10:19:28 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD817D.46596240@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Mathias Koerber'" , "naipr@arin.net" Cc: "apnic-talk@apnic.net" , "apple@apnic.net" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" , "tld-wg@ripe.net" Subject: [apnic-talk] RE: RE: RE: ARIN's View of Magaziner's DCISOC Appearance Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:19:27 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 12:32 PM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staff.singnet.com.sg] wrote: @> On Sunday, May 17, 1998 11:45 AM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staff.singn @> et.com.sg] wrote: @> @> On Saturday, May 16, 1998 11:08 PM, Mathias Koerber[SMTP:mathias@staff. @> sin @> @> gnet.com.sg] wrote: @> @> @This is not ARINs view of his comments, but a synopsis of his @> remarks. @> @> @Your subject line was misleading, but the article itself was @> interesting, @> @> @so thanks for reporting it here... @> @> @ @> @> @> @> @> From: Member Services @> @> @> To: arin-members@arin.net @> @> @> Subject: Remarks by Ira Magaziner to DCISOC @> @> @> @> It was from ARIN's Member Services is that not from ARIN ? @> @ @> @Sure, but it did not contain anything akin to their VIEW of things, @> @only a report of what was said. No ARIN opinion was voiced in that @> piece! @> @ @> @> Who wrote the material ? @ @What does the material contain? A report or an opinion. @Whose words are reported? @ @ Since the material is not a "transcript", similar to what you might see from a court reporter or in a deposition it is the "view" of the person writing it. This may not be the way you view things in Singapore, but this is the common view from the U.S. where a free press has been in place for a long time. If you do assume that the ARIN view that was reported is equivalent to a transcript, then we have to agree to disagree, which is probably what we should have done long ago. I think that most people view the reporting that came from ARIN as their view of Magaziner's presentation. I am certain there are probably aspects which are left out. There are probably aspects that are given more emphasis than Magaziner intended. It is a shame that Magaziner and all of the people involved in these matters do not engage in mail list discussions. Then you would see exactly what they say and you could draw your own conclusions. Let's face it, most of the people trying to control the Internet resource allocation process are afraid of using the Internet. Why...???...I'll let you decide that... - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 01:00:54 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id BAA06016 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:00:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from singapura.singnet.com.sg (singapura.singnet.com.sg [165.21.10.10]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id BAA06011 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:00:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (cwl@localhost) by singapura.singnet.com.sg (8.8.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id XAA12430; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:59:36 +0800 (SST) X-Authentication-Warning: singapura.singnet.com.sg: cwl owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:59:36 +0800 (SST) From: "Chang, Wai-Leong" To: Jim Fleming cc: "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" , "'ARIN list'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT In-Reply-To: <01BD8128.F650B040@webster.unir.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sun, 17 May 1998, Jim Fleming wrote: > On Sunday, May 17, 1998 8:18 AM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] wrote: > > @ > @You are missing my point. I am saying go ask them direct. You will not get > @any answer here. > @ > > Is this because you have no answers or because discussing > these matters may result in you not getting IP allocations ? > Of course i do not have an answer. It is your imaginary issue with APNIC. For your info, APNIC has been very efficient with IP address allocation. I have no problem getting them. You had been crying out in this list for quite some time, i do not see anyone coming forward to enlighten you. Either there is no issue or no one see any point in discusing. Maybe i should take a cue from the majority silence. > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 01:06:00 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id BAA06059 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:06:00 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id BAA06055 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:05:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA03762; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:08:40 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8183.61010E80@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:03:10 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8183.61010E80@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" Cc: "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" Cc: "'ARIN list'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 11:03:09 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 6:59 PM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] wrote: @ @Of course i do not have an answer. It is your imaginary issue with APNIC. @For your info, APNIC has been very efficient with IP address allocation. I @have no problem getting them. @ Again, you missed the point. If you speak out, you could have a problem getting IP addresses in the future. @You had been crying out in this list for quite some time, i do not see @anyone coming forward to enlighten you. Either there is no issue or no one @see any point in discusing. Maybe i should take a cue from the majority @silence. @ Another explanation is that people are concerned that if they speak out they will not be able to obtain IP address resources that they need. This is because IPv4 address allocations are tightly controlled by a small group of insiders. That is going to change soon, real soon. Then we will see how willing people are to speak out...about the past... - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 01:26:19 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id BAA06220 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:26:19 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id BAA06215 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:26:10 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA03795; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:28:56 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8186.35C2C6C0@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:23:26 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8186.35C2C6C0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Chang, Wai-Leong'" Cc: "'Antitrust List'" , "'antitrust@usdoj.gov'" , "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'arin-council@arin.net'" , "'BBURR@ntia.doc.gov'" , "'Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov'" Cc: "'ARIN list'" Subject: [apnic-talk] APNIC Members Do Not Participate...Why ? Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 11:23:25 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 6:59 PM, Chang, Wai-Leong[SMTP:cwl@singnet.com.sg] wrote: @ @You had been crying out in this list for quite some time, i do not see @anyone coming forward to enlighten you. Either there is no issue or no one @see any point in discusing. Maybe i should take a cue from the majority @silence. @ Another explanation is provided on the APNIC web site... @@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/future_directions.htm#c6_1 "Unfortunately, in the past, the membership has not been particularly active in guiding APNIC, despite establishing a mailing list for discussion (apnic-talk@apnic.net) and requesting input on numerous occasions." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Why is this ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 01:40:51 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id BAA06348 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:40:51 +0900 (JST) Received: from sunnm.ism.ac.jp (sunnm.ism.ac.jp [133.58.1.18]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id BAA06341; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:40:45 +0900 (JST) Received: by sunnm.ism.ac.jp (5.67+1.6W/2.08subd-mx) id AA01747; Mon, 18 May 98 01:42:51 JST Date: Mon, 18 May 98 01:42:51 JST Message-Id: <9805171642.AA01747@sunnm.ism.ac.jp> To: JimFleming@unety.net Cc: APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, asjl@NETLINK.CO.NZ, davidc@apnic.net, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp, sanjib@MOS.COM.NP In-Reply-To: <01BD8006.8E145C20@webster.unir.net> (message from Jim Fleming on Fri, 15 May 1998 13:37:06 -0500) Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] 4:116 JP (JAPAN) From: maruyama@nic.ad.jp (MARUYAMA Naomasa) Reply-To: maruyama@nic.ad.jp Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk >From: Jim Fleming >Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:37:06 -0500 >Rather than focus on India, Pakistan and other places, Oh, you completely missunderstood my arguement! My point is: It is meaningless to focus on any specific country. ---- N. Maruyama (Vice President of JPNIC) maruyama@nic.ad.jp * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 01:51:46 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id BAA06442 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:51:46 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id BAA06430; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:51:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA03829; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:54:25 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8189.C52857A0@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:48:55 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8189.C52857A0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'laina@singnet.com.sg'" Cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'APPLe '" Subject: [apnic-talk] APNIC and the Seychelles Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 11:48:54 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Laina, Why was APNIC set up in the Seychelles ? Isn't that a long way from Tokyo, Japan where apparently APNIC has its main office ? Also, why does APNIC keep most of its cash in a bank in Singapore[3] ? Are you involved in the move to Australia ? Jim Fleming [1] @@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/gen.html Document: apnic-047.txt Document-Name: apnic-moa Title: APNIC, Ltd. Memorandum of Association Length: 66638 bytes Author: David Conrad, Laina Greene, H. Elias, & Partners, Ltd. Obsoletes: N/A Obsoleted-By: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ [2] @@@@ ftp://ftp.apnic.net/apnic/archive/apnic-047.txt 1. NAME The name of the Company is APNIC Ltd 2. REGISTERED OFFICE The Registered Office of the Company will be c/o Platinum Corporate Services (Seychelles) Limited, Revolution Avenue, P.O. Box 18, Mahe, Seychelles or such other place within Seychelles as the Company from time to time may determine by a resolution of directors. [3] @@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/financial_status.htm#c3_2 Current Assets Citibank, Singapore US $397,006.78 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@ * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 01:53:48 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id BAA06458 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:53:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id BAA06453; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:53:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA03837; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:56:33 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD818A.11921C20@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:51:03 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD818A.11921C20@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'" Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "asjl@NETLINK.CO.NZ" , "davidc@apnic.net" , "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" Cc: "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" , "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" , "sanjib@MOS.COM.NP" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] 4:116 JP (JAPAN) Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 11:51:02 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 8:42 PM, MARUYAMA Naomasa[SMTP:maruyama@nic.ad.jp] wrote: @>From: Jim Fleming @>Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:37:06 -0500 @ @>Rather than focus on India, Pakistan and other places, @ @Oh, you completely missunderstood my arguement! @ @My point is: @ @ It is meaningless to focus on any specific country. @ Then why is APNIC concerned about paying taxes in Japan ? Why is APNIC moving from the Seychelles to Australia ? Why does APNIC keep most of its cash in Singapore ? Again, where do APNIC employees live and pay taxes ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 02:39:04 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id CAA06838 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 02:39:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id CAA06832; Mon, 18 May 1998 02:38:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA03930; Sun, 17 May 1998 12:41:51 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8190.65309B80@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 12:36:20 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8190.65309B80@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'" Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "asjl@NETLINK.CO.NZ" , "davidc@apnic.net" , "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" Cc: "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" , "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" , "sanjib@MOS.COM.NP" Subject: [apnic-talk] Think Global and Act Local Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 12:36:19 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 8:42 PM, MARUYAMA Naomasa[SMTP:maruyama@nic.ad.jp] wrote: @>From: Jim Fleming @>Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:37:06 -0500 @ @>Rather than focus on India, Pakistan and other places, @ @Oh, you completely missunderstood my arguement! @ @My point is: @ @ It is meaningless to focus on any specific country. @ You might want to look at the global region... 1993 - http://www.apia.org/ppt/ecommerce/sld005.htm 1997 - http://www.apia.org/ppt/ecommerce/sld009.htm ...think global and act local... - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 09:37:44 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id JAA09903 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 09:37:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA09898; Mon, 18 May 1998 09:37:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA04572; Sun, 17 May 1998 19:40:17 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD81CA.D97767A0@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 19:34:46 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD81CA.D97767A0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Andy Linton'" , "'Adam Todd'" Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "asjl@NETLINK.CO.NZ" , "davidc@apnic.net" , "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" Cc: "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" , "'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'" , "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" , "sanjib@MOS.COM.NP" Subject: [apnic-talk] RE: Think Global and Act Local Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:34:45 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 7:14 PM, Andy Linton[SMTP:Andy.Linton@netlink.co.nz] wrote: @> @> ...think global and act local... @ @And the local action you suggest I take is...? @-- @Mailto:Andy.Linton@netlink.co.nz Tel: +64 4 916 5312 If you want to help the Internet grow, especially in New Zealand, I would work with people in that region to help organize the G6 TLD. Adam Todd in Australia can probably provide more details. More specifically, you could work on these delegations... 6:71 NZL (NEW-ZEALAND) 6:130 NZ (NEW-ZEALAND) If you want to get very involved, you could check out your "neighbor net" situation here: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt As an example, you could view NZL as seat 6:71 in a large auditorium. You would contact the people sitting around you. .TK might be easy to find and also .TUV. Let's say you could locate people backing those TLDs. Then the three of you become the trustees for all of the TLDs in between. You might find the people backing .NOC and then you have a complete neighbor net because all of the seats are filled from .TK to .NZL. That becomes your local area to grow. 6:69 TK (TOKELAU) 6:70 NOC 6:71 NZL (NEW-ZEALAND) 6:72 GARAGES 6:73 FLOUR 6:74 FIELD 6:75 TUV (TUVALU) On the other side of you, between .NZL and .TUV you may have more work to do. If you find out that those TLDs (.GARAGES, .FLOUR, .FIELD) are no longer supported you might want to change the names and invite new people to join your neighbor net. G6 only has 256 TLDs to coordinate. By working together with all of the other people in that G-overnance region, you keep the thing together. Eventually, you will run across 6:130 NZ (NEW-ZEALAND) which is a little closer to home. Check out the neighbor net for that seat (6:130) and teach them how it works.... G6 will only be as good as the people there make it... ...have a ball... - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 09:51:40 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id JAA09993 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 09:51:40 +0900 (JST) Received: from topgun.asiapac.net ([202.188.0.106]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id JAA09985 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 09:51:33 +0900 (JST) Received: from topgun ([202.188.0.106]) by topgun.asiapac.net (Netscape Messaging Server 3.52) with SMTP id AAA4F1B; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:52:30 +0800 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 08:52:30 +0800 (SGT) From: Swee-Chuan Khoo X-Sender: sckhoo@topgun To: Jim Fleming cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT In-Reply-To: <01BD8183.61010E80@webster.unir.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sun, 17 May 1998, Jim Fleming wrote: > Again, you missed the point. If you speak out, you could > have a problem getting IP addresses in the future. do you have a prove in this? seems like you just want to make an issue in everything about APNIC here. come on, just say it, what is your hidden agenda here? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Swee-Chuan Khoo, sckhoo@asiapac.net | Not only do i speak for http://www.asiapac.net/~sckhoo/ | myself; I am myself ------------------------------------------------------------------- We don't stop playing when we grow old, we grow old when we stop playing. * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 09:59:31 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id JAA10022 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 09:59:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA10017; Mon, 18 May 1998 09:59:26 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA04626; Sun, 17 May 1998 20:01:02 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD81CD.BFACE5E0@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 19:55:32 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD81CD.BFACE5E0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Andy Linton'" , "'Adam Todd'" , "'DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET'" Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "asjl@NETLINK.CO.NZ" , "davidc@apnic.net" , "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" Cc: "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" , "'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'" , "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" , "sanjib@MOS.COM.NP" Subject: [apnic-talk] From SRI-LANKA to FIJI with New Zealand In Between Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:55:30 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 7:14 PM, Andy Linton[SMTP:Andy.Linton@netlink.co.nz] wrote: @ @And the local action you suggest I take is...? @ In case you are more interested in New Zealand. You would find that seat 6:130 has NZ as shown here: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt 6:115 LK (SRI-LANKA) 6:116 SCHOOL 6:117 MAJOR 6:118 RAMIE 6:119 FACT 6:120 MAKE 6:121 HARVEST 6:122 RAIN 6:123 MALT 6:124 PRIVATE 6:125 TON (TONGA) 6:126 CYBER 6:127 LKA (SRI-LANKA) 6:128 MAX 6:129 MWI (MALAWI) 6:130 NZ (NEW-ZEALAND) 6:131 MARKET 6:132 FJ (FIJI) If you work upwards and downwards looking for another 2-letter TLD you would find LK for SRI-LANKA and FJ for FIJI. Since there is only one seat between .NZ and .FJ you might want to locate the people backing the .MARKET TLD. This would complete that part of the neighbor net (or ring). >From there, you have more work to do or opportunity at the top of the list. Some of those TLDs might be easy to fill in and some may not. Again, as your governance policies get worked out, you can change the names above for the slots. Maybe .OZ is desired, or some other name. Be creative...have a ball... - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 10:04:02 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id KAA10050 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 10:04:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA10045 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 10:03:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA04636; Sun, 17 May 1998 20:06:47 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD81CE.8D55D2E0@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 20:01:17 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD81CE.8D55D2E0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Swee-Chuan Khoo'" Cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] APNIC and APRICOT Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 20:01:15 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Monday, May 18, 1998 3:52 AM, Swee-Chuan Khoo[SMTP:sckhoo@asiapac.net] wrote: @ Since you operate from a .NET TLD you would be in the G0 G-overnance region. That is a very prestigious region. Your neighbors are .ARPA and .BRAND. You might want to get to know them. http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt 0:0 ARPA 0:1 NET 0:2 BRAND - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 10:34:35 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id KAA10297 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 10:34:35 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA10291; Mon, 18 May 1998 10:34:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA04689; Sun, 17 May 1998 20:37:15 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD81D2.CF395C00@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 20:31:45 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD81D2.CF395C00@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'Andy Linton'" , "'Adam Todd'" Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "asjl@NETLINK.CO.NZ" , "davidc@apnic.net" , "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" Cc: "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" , "'maruyama@nic.ad.jp'" , "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" , "sanjib@MOS.COM.NP" Subject: [apnic-talk] RE: Think Global and Act Local Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 20:31:44 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 7:14 PM, Andy Linton[SMTP:Andy.Linton@netlink.co.nz] wrote: @ @And the local action you suggest I take is...? @-- Here is what is stored in the DNS for 7:240 .ARTS. Note that you have to look-up s240.g7 it is reversed. With this approach, we can scan the 2,048 combinations and figure out what TLD aliases are on each "seat". For example, in G6 we would look to your servers for S0.G6, S1.G6, S2.G6, ... S255.G6 to build the table of info for the TLDs. The TXT record has the TLD alias. The RP - Responsible Person record is used to point to a person's e-mail and web site. The other NS info provides typical nameserver delegation info for the TLD Name Servers. Adam Todd has been working on these sorts of delegations for the G6 region. He could delegate some to your name servers by delegating entries like S130.G6 for .NZ JF ==== ; <<>> DiG 2.1 <<>> s240.g7 any ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch ;; got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 6 ;; flags: qr aa rd ra; Ques: 1, Ans: 5, Auth: 2, Addit: 1 ;; QUESTIONS: ;; s240.g7, type = ANY, class = IN ;; ANSWERS: s240.g7. 172800 SOA ns.unety.net. hostmaster.unety.net. ( 1998050506 ; serial 172800 ; refresh (2 days) 3600 ; retry (1 hour) 1728000 ; expire (20 days) 172800 ) ; minimum (2 days) s240.g7. 172800 NS skyscape.net. s240.g7. 172800 NS ns.skyscape.net. s240.g7. 172800 TXT "ALIAS: ARTS" s240.g7. 172800 RP jnh.skyscape.net. www.skyscape.net. ;; AUTHORITY RECORDS: s240.g7. 172800 NS skyscape.net. s240.g7. 172800 NS ns.skyscape.net. ;; ADDITIONAL RECORDS: skyscape.net. 148245 A 207.107.232.3 ;; Total query time: 23 msec ;; FROM: doorstep.unety.net to SERVER: default -- 207.32.128.1 ;; WHEN: Sun May 17 20:30:26 1998 ;; MSG SIZE sent: 25 rcvd: 216 - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 13:00:20 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id NAA14771 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:00:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from copper.singnet.com.sg (copper.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA14710; Mon, 18 May 1998 12:56:56 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from laina (qtas2326.singnet.com.sg [165.21.54.156]) by copper.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29337; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:59:43 +0800 (SGT) Date: Mon, 18 May 98 11:55:15 Subject: [apnic-talk] RE: APNIC and the Seychelles To: "'laina@singnet.com.sg'" , Jim Fleming Cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'APPLe '" X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Why was APNIC set up in Seychelles? Because the technical community of APNIC wanted a legitimate structure but did not want to be bogged down with other adminsitrative that would hinder the work and increase the costs, e.g. the need for a company secretary, accountant, regular minutes, etc. They wanted something that would give them structure but great flexibility. Also, they wanted something that did not costs too much. Before Seychelles was decided on, the law firm did a comprehensive review of at least 7 countries to reveiw which would be the best place. Then it turned out that the law firm we were dealing with, had also been involved in writing up the laws of Seychelles and was the Business Regsitrar of Seychelles as well. So it meant we could do the necessary legal work in Singapore, at very little costs to APNIC. Also, being the Registrar and knowing the laws inside out, APNIC interests would be safeguarded. There was again another review on tax implications, and a decison was taken everyone that Seychelles met all the requirements. Some however were uncomfortable paying into Seychelles. Therefore a bank outside had to be created. Since Citibank in Singapore is used to dealing with offshore Seychelles companies, a bank account was set up here. It was also set up to allow for the Citibank office in Japan to be used. To cut a long story short, Seychelles and a Singapore bank account were chosen to meet the requiremnets of the membership and Secretariat at that time. Many things happened in between, and now they have decided that it is better to set up elsewhere. That is fine, and is common in many organisations. No I am not involved in the move to Australia. Laina RG --- On Sun, 17 May 1998 11:48:54 -0500 Jim Fleming wrote: Laina, Why was APNIC set up in the Seychelles ? Isn't that a long way from Tokyo, Japan where apparently APNIC has its main office ? Also, why does APNIC keep most of its cash in a bank in Singapore[3] ? Are you involved in the move to Australia ? Jim Fleming [1] @@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/gen.html Document: apnic-047.txt Document-Name: apnic-moa Title: APNIC, Ltd. Memorandum of Association Length: 66638 bytes Author: David Conrad, Laina Greene, H. Elias, & Partners, Ltd. Obsoletes: N/A Obsoleted-By: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ [2] @@@@ ftp://ftp.apnic.net/apnic/archive/apnic-047.txt 1. NAME The name of the Company is APNIC Ltd 2. REGISTERED OFFICE The Registered Office of the Company will be c/o Platinum Corporate Services (Seychelles) Limited, Revolution Avenue, P.O. Box 18, Mahe, Seychelles or such other place within Seychelles as the Company from time to time may determine by a resolution of directors. [3] @@@@ http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/financial_status.htm#c3_2 Current Assets Citibank, Singapore US $397,006.78 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@ -----------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------------------- Name: Laina Raveendran Greene E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg Date: 18/05/98 Time: 11:55:15 This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 13:13:10 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id NAA14963 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:13:10 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA14946; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:12:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA05082; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:15:44 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD81E8.F2C90CE0@webster.unir.net>; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:10:14 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD81E8.F2C90CE0@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'laina@singnet.com.sg'" Cc: "'apnic-talk@apnic.net'" , "'APPLe '" Subject: [apnic-talk] RE: APNIC and the Seychelles Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:10:12 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Monday, May 18, 1998 6:55 AM, laina@singnet.com.sg wrote: @ @ @To cut a long story short, Seychelles and a Singapore bank account were @chosen to meet the requiremnets of the membership and Secretariat at that @time. Many things happened in between, and now they have decided that it @is better to set up elsewhere. That is fine, and is common in many @organisations. @ Thanks for the reply. How are the IPv4 address space "assets" accounted for on the APNIC Balance Sheet and how are they being transferred to a new company ? http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/resource_status.htm#c4_1 http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/financial_status.htm#c3_3 Also, has APNIC been following the "address ownership" model spelled out in RFC 2008 ? @@@ http://www.isi.edu/rfc-editor/catagories/rfc-best.html rfc2008 Implications of Various Address Allocation Policies for Internet Routing "While it has never been explicitly stated that various Internet Registries use the "address ownership" allocation policy, it has always been assumed (and practiced)." @@@@@@@ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 13:15:54 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id NAA14991 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:15:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA14985; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:15:44 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805180415.NAA14985@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:59:16 +0800 To: intl-wg@nic.ad.jp From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: [JPNIC intl-wg 243] Re: comments on legal documents Cc: APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp, maruyama@nic.ad.jp In-Reply-To: <199805171550.AAA06912@mailbus.ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Obata-san, >Although I understand the difficulty in establishing an organization which >works for the interests of an international community consisting of a wide >range of differences, I think the structure proposed, especially the >business part, is too complicated to understand and to be sure that it will >work well. I would point out that APNIC has operated under this structure since April, 1996... >I understand the structure proposed as follows; > >The members of APNIC elects the members of the Executive Committee and give >them rights to make important decisions which cannot be done promptly if it >were done in member meetings or by electronic voting or which does not >require endorsements by the members before the decisions. Additionally, >the EC discusses internally and make proposals to the members for important >decisions. >The EC appoints a Director General who will manage an organization which >will perform daily operation of IP address assignments. The DG will be >endorsed to hold the unique share of APNIC Pty. Ltd. to run the organization. > >This structure is complicated since there are two steps of endorsements. I'm not sure I see how the second "endorsement" (presumably the DG being "endorsed" to hold the APNIC Pty Ltd. share) actually impacts much of anything. The DG has the share simply because _somebody_ had to have it -- given the Trust Statement, the ownership of the share does not confer any significant rights. Would it make things simpler if the chair of the EC has the share? If you're indicating the second endorsement is from the membership, it is unclear to me how the alternative you offer below differs very much from the existing situation. >Will it be possible to simplify it by something like the following >organization? As I have said, anything is possible if a majority of the membership feels it appropriate. >The EC will be elected and make decisions as the same manner as it is >proposed. Furthermore it will prepare a budgetary plan and selects an >organization to do daily operation of IP address assignments. Anything >else, such as writing draft rules of APNIC, checking performance of the >above organization, planning budgets, endorsing important decisions are >done by the EC with consulting APNIC members through e-mails when necessary. A structure similar to this was discussed and rejected during the initial incorporation of APNIC. Primary reason we decided not to go this route were: a) it requires the EC, individuals who have other responsibilities that must take priority as the EC is a volunteer position, to be _much_ more active in the day-to-day operations of APNIC. I might suggest you consult the current or past EC members to determine if they feel they would be able to participate at the levels suggested. b) It is important that the resources APNIC manage always be held on behalf of the membership. If operation of APNIC is contracted out, extreme care must be given in the construction of the contracts as some confusion may be generated about the resources and the associated data (for example, see the case of NSI and ownership of the InterNIC whois database information) c) it is important that the Secretariat have a good relationship with the membership, particularly in understanding the member's growth patterns, request history, etc. Having the Secretariat being a contracted function implies the ability to change contractors (otherwise, why pay the overhead associated with the contractor) -- this change would likely hamper the "continuity" of the membership/Secretariat relationship. d) in practice (and has been demonstrated after 2 years of APNIC operations), the vast majority of the membership simply do not care about the details of APNIC operations -- they have more important things on their minds, like keeping their business operational, handling day-to-day forest fires, etc. As such, we came up with a structure that focuses much of the day-to-day operations of APNIC into the Secretariat, with the EC acting primarily as an advisory/authorization body, but giving the membership veto power over any EC and/or Secretariat decision. >The difficulty is how we handle the fund. How about the EC contracting the >organization for management of the fund with the APNIC members holding >ownership for the fund? I don't believe this would be a significant issue as the APNIC Treasurer is an EC member. >I understand that if we make drastic changes to the current organization it >will require time for the establishment of the new APNIC structure and move >to Australia More importantly, it would leave the 3 additional staff APNIC has just recently hired as well as (and in particular) the new director general position in a complicated position. There is a reason the closing date for comments on the legal documents is next week -- it would be very helpful if wc can finalize the documents quickly to complete the incorporation so contracts can be signed, visas requested, etc. under the Australian company. As we have learned from our experiences with APNIC incorporated in the Seychelles and operating in Tokyo, having an organization incorporated in the country in which operations will occur greatly eases those operations. Perhaps I might suggest that if the membership wishes to radically restructure APNIC that the existing structure taken from the APNIC Seychelles company is implemented immediately as an interim measure and then the Executive Council appoint a committee tasked with making recommendations to revise the structure of APNIC? > but I am not confident enough that a company with stock shares >is the only solution so that the APNIC members cannot have direct control >of the new company. I am unsure of another structure that would be as simple as a stock based company. With respect to the membership having direct control, I would point out: a) the membership directly elects the EC b) the EC is the authorizing body for major decisions c) the EC delegates authority to implement those decisions to the Secretariat in your proposal (as I understand it) a) the membership directly elects the EC b) the EC is the authorizing body for major decisions c) the EC delegates authority to implement those decisions to the Secretariat. so the fundamental structure is identical. The primary differences I see in your proposal: 1) the EC takes on a much larger role 2) the Secretariat is contracted as an organization Perhaps I misunderstand your proposal, however... >I assumed that APNIC Pty. Ltd. is a normal company >like IBM, Telstra or Compaq. Yes, in that it is a incorporated entity that has issued shares. No, in that it has defined itself to be a non-profit organization in its charter and it will only issue one share. >However, it may be different. We may learn >from what AUNIC is doing in Australia. As I understand it, AUNIC == Telstra. Prior to Telstra buying AARNET (Australian Academic and Research Network), AUNIC was operated by AARNET (which I believe was operated by a corporation made up of the regents of all the public Universities in AU). I'm not sure what can be learned from either the current AUNIC or the past AUNIC, but I'm sure former (or current) AARNET/AUNIC folks will jump in here... Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 15:14:14 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA17108 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:14:14 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA17100; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:14:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA05448; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:16:58 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD81F9.E211D060@webster.unir.net>; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:11:27 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD81F9.E211D060@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'David R. Conrad'" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" , "maruyama@nic.ad.jp" Cc: "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Re: [JPNIC intl-wg 243] Re: comments on legal documents Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 01:11:26 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 11:59 PM, David R. Conrad[SMTP:davidc@apnic.net] wrote: @Perhaps I might suggest that if the membership wishes to radically @restructure APNIC that the existing structure taken from the APNIC @Seychelles company is implemented immediately as an interim measure and @then the Executive Council appoint a committee tasked with making @recommendations to revise the structure of APNIC? @ Why not leave APNIC in the Seychelles, start a new "NIC" in Japan with the existing staff in Tokyo and encourage the people in Australia to also start a NIC based on the structure they have developed ? This would result in three NICs. The Seychelles company could cover the areas that the other two companies feel are out of their scope. By leaving a company in the Seychelles it might help that region expand the Internet. Also, by having a NIC in Japan the northern areas of the Pacific Rim could be better served. You have plenty of cash in the bank. Three companies could easily be supported for that large region. Also, it should be easier to staff the companies if they are operated where they are incorporated. Why make life so complex ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 15:47:53 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA17725 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:47:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA17718; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:47:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA05510; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:50:38 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD81FE.9656F740@webster.unir.net>; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:45:08 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD81FE.9656F740@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "'David R. Conrad'" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" Cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "ec-satou@kdd.co.jp" , "intl-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "ip-wg@nic.ad.jp" , "kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp" , "maruyama@nic.ad.jp" Cc: "mo-abe@kdd.co.jp" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Re: [JPNIC intl-wg 243] Re: comments on legal documents Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 01:45:06 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sunday, May 17, 1998 11:59 PM, David R. Conrad[SMTP:davidc@apnic.net] wrote: @Obata-san, @ @>Although I understand the difficulty in establishing an organization which @>works for the interests of an international community consisting of a wide @>range of differences, I think the structure proposed, especially the @>business part, is too complicated to understand and to be sure that it will @>work well. @ @I would point out that APNIC has operated under this structure since April, @1996... @ There are many ways to structure "NICs". It is not clear to me that they need to be elaborate companies with complex legal and financial structures and high-priced services. The following proposal reminds me of the fact that some of the people in the Registry Industry that I am working with intend to try to preserve the IS, RS, DS model. It is good to see that it was once proposed for APNIC. It could be used today and migth save everyone a lot of time and money. ==== ftp://ftp.apnic.net/apnic/archive/apnic-007.txt APNIC-007.0 T. Park Project Proposal December 1993 Proposal for Distributed APNIC Operations Issued: December 8, 1993 Expires: Not Applicable 1. Overview KRNIC proposes to operate APNIC as a collaborative project between national NIC's in Asia Pacific region. The collaboration will be similar to the Internic operations, categorizing operations into the following - Registration Services (RS) (rs.apnic.net) - Directory and Database Services (DS) (ds.apnic.net) - Information Services (IS) (is.apnic.net) This is a first step of extending current NIC hierarchy of Global NIC - Regional NIC - National NIC into three hierarchies Global RS - Regional RS - National RS Global DS - Regional DS - National DS Global IS - Regional IS - National IS The most urgent service should be RS, and APNIC pilot project has been focusing on this issue. DS can be supported using raw data copy of RS. IS can be supported more independently from other services. By operating APNIC by multiple national NICs, the funding overhead of each NIC's can be distributed and it can promote collaboration in this region. Korea Network Information Center is willing to support one of APNIC services for 2 years (1994-1995) or more. Full funding support will be done by Korean government as a research project. 2. APNIC Support by KRNIC Funding support will be done by National Computerization Agency (NCA) of Korea for two years, including full-time and half time staffs, equipments, active meeting participation, and the stable connection to the Internet. APNIC staff full-time Park [Page 1] APNIC-007.0 December 1993 APNIC staff(s) part-time secretary half-time APNIC staffs will actively participate to relevant meetings such as IETF, APCCIRN, and INET conference. 3. Description on APNIC Services 3.1 Primary Services - Registration Services This is the most important service of APNIC and APNIC will guarantee the quality of service it provides including response time, stability of connection to APNIC machines, and fairness and openness of the registry function. - Directory and Database Services Directory and network management database will be maintained. Included are person of contact, IP networks, DNS domains and routing information. WHOIS and X.500 will be deployed for this purpose. - Information Services (APNIC document store) APNIC will generate and collect network information especially on Asia-Pacific region. The information will be provided by the APNIC server machine using various mechanisms such as anonymous ftp, gopher and WWW. 3.2 Optional Services - routing registry (route server) - DNS coordination - assistance for national NIC set up (e.g. sabatical programs) - quarterly report 4. Remarks - APNIC members and APNIC operation team APNIC operation team will have the responsiblity to APNIC members (NIC-representatives from APCCIRN countries) via appropriate means such as reporting at meetings, periodic newsletter, mailing lists and so on. Critical decisions will be done by the concensus of APNIC members. - APNIC beyond September 1996 Before September 1996, decision on the next phase operational plan of APNIC will be made, including stable funding support. The default option will be the continuation of full funding support Park [Page 2] APNIC-007.0 December 1993 by national NIC's providing each services. 5. Author's Address Taeha Park Korea Network Information Center Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology Department of Computer Science Taejon, 305-701, Republic of Korea Tel: +82-42-869-3554 Fax: +82-42-869-3510 Email: taeha@nic.nm.kr ===================== - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 22:59:45 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA28755 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 22:59:45 +0900 (JST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA28731 for apnic-announce-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 22:57:00 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA28710; Mon, 18 May 1998 22:56:39 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805181356.WAA28710@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:40:04 +0800 To: executive-council From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] [apnic-announce] Summary of APNIC's current status Cc: apnic-announce@apnic.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: apnic-talk@apnic.net Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk [Note "reply-to:" field] APNIC Status Report - transition prepared by Anne Lord Status of relocation ---------------------------- o Office refurbishment - Furniture ordered - Office layout design complete - Cabling for phones, power and network started o Initial Connectivity installed - 256k "Fastway" service connecting to Telstra - ISDN lines for staff dialup - ISDN lines for phones o Equipment - SCO clustering software donation, with Compaq hardware donation hoped for.. - Cisco 7206 loan, 64Mb Ram, 20Mb Flash with 11.1CC software, netflow capable for collector statistics and traffic shaping - 2 x Cisco 2924XL - 24 port 10/100baseT switches, on loan and on order - phone system Nortel GDK100 or Samsung DCS? o Computer Room - 2 racks on order, 1 Compaq rack ordered - 1 x UPS (APC) per rack Staff ------- o DG recruitment - KPMG handling executive search - Posted to membership and other RIR's - Closing date 25th May -- see http://www.apnic.net/jobs/dg.html o New staff hired - 1 hostmaster, Fabrina Hossain (starts June 1st) - 1 sysadm/developer, Paul Gampe (started) - 1 business assistant, Connie Chan (starts June 1st) Registration Services ------------------------------- o Currently backlogged queue - 1 hostmaster full-time (Yoshiko) o Final stages of implementation of new ticketing system o Implementing transition to new charging scheme based on a per address fee for confederation members only o Transition of APNIC in-addr.arpa from Telstra to APNIC servers expected shortly Priorities ------------- o Finding a new DG o Completing relocation (mid to end of June with basic operation June 1st) o Consolidating PC/UNIX platforms o Stabilising core services o Software development o Documentation o Training for members similar to RIPE Local IR courses * APNIC-ANNOUNCE: Announcements concerning APNIC * * To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe" to apnic-announce-request@apnic.net * * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 18 23:03:35 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id XAA28815 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 18 May 1998 23:03:35 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail1.cisco.com (mail1.cisco.com [171.68.225.60]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA28809 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 23:03:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com (singapore-async-151.cisco.com [171.68.85.151]) by mail1.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id HAA15888 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 07:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Barry Raveendran Greene" To: Subject: [apnic-talk] Please Moderate or close this list .... Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:02:53 +0800 Message-ID: <001601bd8265$a6d7a4e0$975544ab@bgreene-pc.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <01BD812F.5EE42D20@webster.unir.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk To the APNIC Executive Consul, Please moderate and/or close this list to APNIC members only. I'm willing to lose personal access to the APNIC-Talk in return for the APNIC members to have a forum were they can discuss things. Thanks, Barry * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 19 01:39:46 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id BAA00705 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 19 May 1998 01:39:46 +0900 (JST) Received: from doorstep.unety.net (ns.unety.net [207.32.128.1]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id BAA00701 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 01:39:40 +0900 (JST) Received: from webster.unir.net ([207.32.159.5]) by doorstep.unety.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA07886; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:42:33 -0500 Received: by webster.unir.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD8251.46BA0580@webster.unir.net>; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:37:02 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD8251.46BA0580@webster.unir.net> From: Jim Fleming To: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" Cc: "'bgreene@cisco.com'" , "'fred@cisco.com'" , "'laina@singnet.com.sg'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Please Moderate or close this list .... Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:37:01 -0500 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Monday, May 18, 1998 9:02 AM, Barry Raveendran Greene[SMTP:bgreene@cisco.com] wrote: @To the APNIC Executive Consul, @ @Please moderate and/or close this list to APNIC members only. @ @I'm willing to lose personal access to the APNIC-Talk in return for the @APNIC members to have a forum were they can discuss things. @ @Thanks, @ @Barry @ @* APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * @* To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * @ @ I doubt if you would lose personal access. Isn't your wife Laina Raveendran Greene, one of the attorneys for APNIC ? Also, I am sure that your IETF contacts and CISCO contacts will forward you the discussions. By the way, are you requesting this action as a CISCO employee posting from a CISCO.COM domain ? Have you cleared it with the CISCO legal department ? - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 19 09:07:04 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id JAA07376 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 19 May 1998 09:07:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from singapura.singnet.com.sg (singapura.singnet.com.sg [165.21.10.10]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id JAA07369 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 09:06:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (cwl@localhost) by singapura.singnet.com.sg (8.8.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA07224; Tue, 19 May 1998 08:08:41 +0800 (SST) X-Authentication-Warning: singapura.singnet.com.sg: cwl owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:08:41 +0800 (SST) From: "Chang, Wai-Leong" To: Jim Fleming cc: "APNIC-TALK@apnic.net" , "'bgreene@cisco.com'" , "'fred@cisco.com'" , "'laina@singnet.com.sg'" Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Please Moderate or close this list .... In-Reply-To: <01BD8251.46BA0580@webster.unir.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 May 1998, Jim Fleming wrote: > On Monday, May 18, 1998 9:02 AM, Barry Raveendran Greene[SMTP:bgreene@cisco.com] wrote: > @To the APNIC Executive Consul, > @ > @Please moderate and/or close this list to APNIC members only. > @ > @I'm willing to lose personal access to the APNIC-Talk in return for the > @APNIC members to have a forum were they can discuss things. > @ > @Thanks, > @ > @Barry > @ > > I doubt if you would lose personal access. Isn't your wife > Laina Raveendran Greene, one of the attorneys for APNIC ? And I am his son. :-) > > Also, I am sure that your IETF contacts and CISCO contacts > will forward you the discussions. > > By the way, are you requesting this action as a CISCO employee > posting from a CISCO.COM domain ? Have you cleared it with > the CISCO legal department ? > > My god, is there a possible legal issue. I have been using my SingNet account. I think i better stop and use one of those hotmail/yahoo free accounts. Then again, where is the credibility ... Give me a break. > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * > * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 19 12:11:33 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id MAA10708 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 19 May 1998 12:11:33 +0900 (JST) Received: from iron.singnet.com.sg (iron.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.29]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA10694; Tue, 19 May 1998 12:11:21 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from laina (qtas1036.singnet.com.sg [165.21.58.106]) by iron.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02940; Tue, 19 May 1998 11:14:12 +0800 (SGT) Date: Tue, 19 May 98 11:12:57 Subject: RE: [apnic-talk] Re: [JPNIC intl-wg 243] Re: comments on legal documents To: intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, "David R. Conrad" Cc: APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp, maruyama@nic.ad.jp X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Thought you may like to know that since the Singapore law firm handled APNIC structure, they improved on it for APIA. Instead of the DG holding the one share, APIA Ltd has a special committee called APIA which holds the one share on behalf of APIA Ltd. APIA Special Committee is then a membership based organisation, which means the members hold the one share on behalf of APIA. It helps clean up the dangers of a bearer share. Laina RG --- On Mon, 18 May 1998 12:59:16 +0800 "David R. Conrad" wrote: Obata-san, I'm not sure I see how the second "endorsement" (presumably the DG being "endorsed" to hold the APNIC Pty Ltd. share) actually impacts much of anything. The DG has the share simply because _somebody_ had to have it -- given the Trust Statement, the ownership of the share does not confer any significant rights. Would it make things simpler if the chair of the EC has the share? If you're indicating the second endorsement is from the membership, it is unclear to me how the alternative you offer below differs very much from the existing situation. ------------------------------------- Name: Laina Raveendran Greene E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg Date: 19/05/98 Time: 11:12:57 This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 19 16:31:23 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id QAA13838 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 19 May 1998 16:31:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA13832; Tue, 19 May 1998 16:31:13 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805190731.QAA13832@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:13:46 +0800 To: Jim Fleming From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Removal from APNIC lists Cc: apnic-talk@apnic.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Jim Fleming, At the request of the chair of the APNIC Executive Council, you have been removed from APNIC related lists due to your disruptive behavior. Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 19 16:55:49 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id QAA14105 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 19 May 1998 16:55:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA14097; Tue, 19 May 1998 16:55:42 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805190755.QAA14097@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:38:36 +0800 To: From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Please Moderate or close this list .... Cc: In-Reply-To: <001601bd8265$a6d7a4e0$975544ab@bgreene-pc.cisco.com> References: <01BD812F.5EE42D20@webster.unir.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Barry, As you have seen, the APNIC Executive Council has decided to attempt to alleviate the situation by simply removing the primary cause instead of closing and/or moderating the list. While the apnic-talk list is intended to be an open discussion list where people are free to participate as much or as little as they feel appropriate, with that freedom comes a responsibility to not be disruptive and/or discourage discussion by others. As it was felt Jim Fleming had not lived up to that responsibility, the chair of the APNIC Executive Council has indicated for the first time in the history of APNIC that the rather extreme action of removal from APNIC mailing lists was appropriate. Regards, -drc ---------------- At 10:02 PM 5/18/98 +0800, Barry Raveendran Greene wrote: >To the APNIC Executive Consul, > >Please moderate and/or close this list to APNIC members only. > >I'm willing to lose personal access to the APNIC-Talk in return for the >APNIC members to have a forum were they can discuss things. > >Thanks, > >Barry > >* APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * >* To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Wed May 20 00:07:29 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA24351 for apnic-talk-out; Wed, 20 May 1998 00:07:29 +0900 (JST) Received: from copper.singnet.com.sg (copper.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id AAA24342; Wed, 20 May 1998 00:07:20 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from laina (qtas0326.singnet.com.sg [165.21.56.156]) by copper.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21500; Tue, 19 May 1998 23:10:12 +0800 (SGT) Date: Tue, 19 May 98 22:59:53 Subject: [apnic-talk] CommunicAsia'98/NetworkAsia'98 To: apple@apnic.net, apnic-talk@apnic.net X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk This is to inform all APPLers and APNIC members that there will be CommunicAsia'98/NetworkAsia'98 from the 2-5th June 1998 in Singapore. GetIT Pte Ltd was involved in organising the Electronic Commerce Module, and if any APPLers show strong interest (e-mail us at laina@getit.org), we could get you discount vouchers of 25% (making it S$500 instead of S$680) for this module. CommunicAsia'98/NetworkAsia'98 is one of the largest exhibitions and conference held in Asia. This year it coincides with the 3rd APEC Telecom and Information Industry Ministerial meeting also held in Singapore.This important event which is hosted by the Telecommunications Authority of Singapore will bring together 20 top ranking ministers of communications and information from across the Asia-Pacific region. The Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation is an important inter-governmental economic grouping of member countries including Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, People’s Republic of China, Hong Kong, Indonesia,Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand and USA. For more information about CommunicAsia'98, please check out http://www.sesmontnet.com/Cma98/Cma98.htm ------------------------------------- Name: Laina Raveendran Greene Managing Director GetIT Pte Ltd E-mail: laina@getit.org Date: 19/05/98 Time: 22:59:53 This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Thu May 21 03:44:50 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id DAA24563 for apnic-talk-out; Thu, 21 May 1998 03:44:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from dewdrop2.mindspring.com (dewdrop2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id DAA24558 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 03:44:42 +0900 (JST) Received: from vucqpqlj (user-37kbu94.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.249.36]) by dewdrop2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA21262; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980520144610.006a0938@mindspring.com> X-Sender: iquest1@mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:46:10 -0400 To: ietf@ns.ietf.org From: Jay Fenello Subject: [apnic-talk] Cultural Values (was: APNIC's Censorship) Cc: ripe-list@ripe.net, naipr@arin.net, apnic-talk@apnic.net, DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET, Ira_C._Magaziner@oa.eop.gov, bburr@ntia.doc.gov, dns@ntia.doc.gov In-Reply-To: <199805201800.OAA25394@jekyll.piermont.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk >All property, Karl, is the result of common law. Some, like land or >your chair, have been with us for millenia, so we no longer recognise >that the notion of property itself is an invention -- but naturally it >is. The reason your chair is yours is because of longstanding >convention, and not because the rules of physics require it. > >David Conrad was merely pointing out, rationally, that what gives >APNIC, ARIN, and the IANA itself power is not a law saying "Joe owns >IP addresses" but the fact that providers voluntarily route based on >those number allocations and recognise them. The "property" like >feature of the numbers does not derive from the integers themselves >but because of the fact that people will route them. Given this, the >value is not granted by the government, which does not even have laws >on the allocation of integers, but by the consent of the entire >community. Due to the great success of the Internet, the traditional methods of managing Internet resources are evolving. Some of the questions being addressed in the Green Paper are 1) who is in charge, and 2) what legal jurisdiction(s) should apply. One difficulty in establishing the latter is that legal jurisdictions are directly related to cultural values. I am encouraged by recent information that suggests that the White Paper will embrace the following . . . At 12:25 PM 4/21/98 -0400, Jay Fenello wrote: >In our emerging cyber-world, competition >between ideas and cultural values must also be encouraged, >as it is likely to lead to a new understanding of our >connectedness. Everything we do should encourage this >competition. > >Consequently, I suggest that the proper course of action >is to support a global Internet that gives U.S. Values >the opportunity to compete on an equal footing with other >soveriegn and cultural values. I would like to suggest that, rather than arguing about how things used to be, we start working together to establish how things *ought* to be. For this to happen, the old guard must realize that their success has expanded their historical management roles to include policy issues that have traditionally been in the governmental arena, issues like privacy, free speech, etc. By looking forward, both sides of this debate can work together for the greater common good. Regards, Jay Fenello President, Iperdome, Inc. 404-250-3242 http://www.iperdome.com * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 22 03:10:25 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id DAA23752 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 22 May 1998 03:10:25 +0900 (JST) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id DAA23748 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 03:10:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from vucqpqlj (user-37kbo8h.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.225.17]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA08880; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:12:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980521141242.03cb6098@mindspring.com> X-Sender: iquest1@mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 14:12:42 -0400 To: ietf@ns.ietf.org From: Jay Fenello Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: Johnson, Farber, Maher and Cochetti Cc: ripe-list@ripe.net, naipr@arin.net, apnic-talk@apnic.net, gtld-discuss@gtld-mou.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk FYI: >Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:00:10 -0400 >To: Dave Farber , > Roger Cochetti , > "David W. Maher" >From: Jay Fenello >Subject: Re: Johnson, Farber, Maher and Cochetti >Cc: domain-policy@open-rsc.org, DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET > > >At 11:28 AM 5/21/98 -0400, Jay Fenello wrote: >> >>FYI: >> >>http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/Johnson.htm > > >After a quick review, I believe that you have addressed many >of the issues raised in this debate. Thank you for a job well >done, and the hard work that went into it. > >I'll have some additional comments after I have had a chance >to review your proposal in more detail. > > >Regards, > >Jay Fenello >President, Iperdome, Inc. >404-250-3242 http://www.iperdome.com > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 22 10:59:57 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id KAA00893 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:59:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (ip21.dialup.tokyo.jp.psi.net [154.33.254.21]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA00882; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:59:46 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805220159.KAA00882@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:34:04 +0800 To: intl-wg@nic.ad.jp From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: [JPNIC intl-wg 235] Re: comments on legal documents Cc: maruyama@nic.ad.jp, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-Reply-To: <199805160907.SAA16739@teckla.apnic.net> References: <199805151359.WAA20056@home2.nic.ad.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Maruyama-san, >>This is, I feel, a crucial point in these documents. A legal advisor >>of JPNIC is now studying these documents. Has your legal advisor returned any comments? Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 22 11:31:16 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA01888 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:31:16 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (ip21.dialup.tokyo.jp.psi.net [154.33.254.21]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA01876; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:31:01 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805220231.LAA01876@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:13:57 +0800 To: yo-obata@kdd.co.jp From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Re:[JPNIC ip-wg 4977] Re: comments on legal documents Cc: ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, yo-obata@kdd.co.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-Reply-To: References: <199805131130.UAA01023@teckla.apnic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Obata-san, Additinal comments from APNIC's legal counsel: >Is it possible to change the name for the latter to something like >AP-NIC to avoid confusion? According to Freehills: "The wording that has been used is, as requested, the same type of wording used in the documents for the Seychelles company and Seychelles APNIC. It is interesting that it has taken this long for these concerns about the similarities in terms to arise. We assume that is probably because the APNIC members have not had the opportunity or interest in reading all of the relevant documents together at the same time. After this initial period of consultation, the APNIC members may only be directly effect by and interested in the Membership Agreement and By-laws. Therefore, there may be a decreased likelihood of these confusions in terminology occuring again. Please let us know if you wish to alter the terms used in any of the documents. However, if you wish to change any terms in the Articles or Memorandum of Association, please note that: - this will require appropriate resolutions by you as the sharehold and lodgement of forms with the Australian Securities Commission; - if you intend to alter the terminology regarding members (eg change "members" to "shareholders" in the Memorandum and Articles) this may cause another type of confusion later. That is, under the Australian Corporations Law shareholders are referred to as members. For this reasons "members" is normally used in an Australian company's Articles and Memorandum of Association; and - as suggested the Memorandum and Articles could be amended to refer to APNIC Pty Ltd as APL. However, this may only have a limited benefit, because: * you would have to carry out the administrative burden of the necessary resolutions and ASC notices; and * in any event internal references within the Memorandum and Articles to APNIC Pty Ltd are as "Company" which may already distinguish it from APNIC." Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 22 11:31:13 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA01885 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:31:13 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (ip21.dialup.tokyo.jp.psi.net [154.33.254.21]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA01873; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:30:58 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805220230.LAA01873@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:58:30 +0800 To: yo-obata@kdd.co.jp From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Re:[JPNIC ip-wg 4974] Re: comments on legal documents Cc: ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-Reply-To: References: <199805130716.QAA17743@teckla.apnic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Obata-san, APNIC's legal counsel responded to your questions last night. I've inserted their responses in-line into your mail to keep the context. >>>a) It is usual among Japanese organizations that a privately owned company >>>does not issue shares due to difficulty of storing such papers. In my >>>experience, it is usual that both a company and all of its shareholders >>>agree in writing that they do not issue shares in paper. I think it will >>>be beneficial for both the share holders and APNIC if we can adopt such >>>procedures. According to Freehills: "Under Australian law, there is a general obligation to issue paper share certificiates. There are limited circumstances where companies can apply for exemption from compliance, however this involves a number of administrative steps and even then there is a discretion on the part of the regulator." >If there will be only one share to be issued, perhaps nobody else than >the person holding it will care of the above issue. According to Freehills: "As you commented in your response to Mr. Obata, if there will only be one share then there is no real significant problem" >>>c) It seems better that an international arbitration organization is >>>assigned as a default in case where the disputants cannot agree on anything >>>else. According to Freehills: There are international arbitrations and international aribitration rules, so if you wish this Article can be amended: However, please note: - if APNIC Pty Ltd. is to be based in Brisbane, it would most likely be more convenient and cost effective that the arbitration was held in Australia. Australia does have a comparatively good system of arbitration. Furthermore, there aer certain Australian Arbitration bodies which administer arbitrations under UNCITRAL Rules (international arbitration rules). >>>b) It may not be a good idea to refer to RFCs in the main part of the >>>Agreement since it is more difficult to be changed. Although adoption of >>>such RFCs are not limited to the list in the Agreement, it will give enough >>>implication that may cause misinterpretation in the future when new RFCs >>>are issued. >>True, however there are no legal requirements to change the membership >>agreement (unlike changing By-Laws which needs a 2/3 majority of the >>members or changing the articles which needs to be filed with the AU >>gov't). Further, if we do not explicitly mention which RFCs, then it >>becomes much more difficult to define what exactly is being agreed to. According to Freehills: "We agree with your response to Mr. Obata. Furthermore, the wording of clause 9 specifically states that it is an obligation to comply with "common Internet practices ... including (but not limited to)" the stated RFCs. Therefore, if other RFCs can be proved to be within common Internet practices, then they will also form part of those obligations." >>>c) I am not sure whether reference to an FTP address in contracts have any >>>legal status. According to Freehills: "Under Australian contract law, for references to external documents to be effective the reference must be clear. That is, if FTP is common knowledge in the industry and specifically to the companies who will become APNIC members, to the extent that they can clearly identify the relevant FTP then that should be sufficient." (additional responses in subsequent mail) Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 22 15:12:06 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA08662 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:12:06 +0900 (JST) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA08656 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:12:00 +0900 (JST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA18699; Fri, 22 May 1998 01:13:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dal-tx46-48.ix.netcom.com(198.211.44.176) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018659; Fri May 22 01:12:53 1998 Message-ID: <3564B349.82D6B07E@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 00:05:48 +0100 From: Jeff Williams Organization: IEG. INC. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Fleming CC: DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, "Antitrust DEPT. DOJ Justice" Subject: [apnic-talk] Internet sad day, was For the record... References: <01BD8510.081AFFC0@webster.unir.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Jim and all, Jim Fleming wrote: > The following is being posted to the open Domain Policy > list supported by the U.S. Government and is being copied > to key U.S. Government officials for the record. > > The following illustrates... > > 1. Mr. Barry Raveendran Greene an employee of CISCO systems > requested that the censorship action be taken. > > 2. Mr. David Conrad who has supposedly resigned from APNIC > facilitated the action. > > 3. This is the first time in the history of APNIC this has happened. > > 4. It appears that all mailing lists are included especially the > new IPv6 Registry mailing list. > > 5. No actual comments, discussion, etc. have been recorded from any > of the so-called Executive Council who are not named in a > visible manner on the APNIC web site. This is indeed a sad and unjustified action. It is a sad thing that anyone that truly supports the Internet, and what it has and still does in most places, stand for.... Is this the beginning of the end of civil and responsible action at APNIC? You be the judge. Read the APNIC archives, learn the truth for yourself... We at INEG. INC. and all of our affiliates are truly both concerned, hartened and extremely saddened at this truely undemocratic action. May freedom Ring! > > > Jim Fleming > > ================================================================= > >From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 19 16:55:49 1998 > Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id > QAA14105 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 19 May 1998 16:55:49 +0900 (JST) > Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by > teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA14097; Tue, 19 May 1998 > 16:55:42 +0900 (JST) > Message-Id: <199805190755.QAA14097@teckla.apnic.net> > X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net > X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 > Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:38:36 +0800 > To: > From: "David R. Conrad" > Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Please Moderate or close this list .... > Cc: > In-Reply-To: <001601bd8265$a6d7a4e0$975544ab@bgreene-pc.cisco.com> > References: <01BD812F.5EE42D20@webster.unir.net> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net > Precedence: bulk > > Barry, > > As you have seen, the APNIC Executive Council has decided to attempt to > alleviate the situation by simply removing the primary cause instead of > closing and/or moderating the list. Yes and a terrible an unwise action it is. :( > > > While the apnic-talk list is intended to be an open discussion list where > people are free to participate as much or as little as they feel > appropriate, with that freedom comes a responsibility to not be disruptive > and/or discourage discussion by others. Yet after reviewing the archives, there was not so much as one post that Jim Flemming posted that could have been construed as disruptive or served to discourage any discussion by any other than those the fear honesty and truth. Ad sad day for the internet this truly is.... > > > As it was felt Jim Fleming had not lived up to that responsibility, the > chair of the APNIC Executive Council has indicated for the first time in > the history of APNIC that the rather extreme action of removal from APNIC > mailing lists was appropriate. Was a vote of the membership taken to determine this action? Was a in depth review done? > > > Regards, > -drc > ---------------- > At 10:02 PM 5/18/98 +0800, Barry Raveendran Greene wrote: > >To the APNIC Executive Consul, > > > >Please moderate and/or close this list to APNIC members only. > > > >I'm willing to lose personal access to the APNIC-Talk in return for the > >APNIC members to have a forum were they can discuss things. > > > >Thanks, > > > >Barry > > > >* APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * > >* To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * > > > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * > * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * > =============================================================== > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net/IPv8 > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > regards, -- Jeffrey A. Williams DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng. Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC. E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 22 15:14:12 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA08762 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:14:12 +0900 (JST) Received: from sunnm.ism.ac.jp (sunnm.ism.ac.jp [133.58.1.18]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA08752; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:14:03 +0900 (JST) Received: by sunnm.ism.ac.jp (5.67+1.6W/2.08subd-mx) id AA15081; Fri, 22 May 98 15:16:45 JST Date: Fri, 22 May 98 15:16:45 JST Message-Id: <9805220616.AA15081@sunnm.ism.ac.jp> To: davidc@apnic.net Cc: intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-Reply-To: <199805220159.KAA00882@teckla.apnic.net> (davidc@apnic.net) Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: [JPNIC intl-wg 235] Re: comments on legal documents From: maruyama@nic.ad.jp (=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRANF07M0Q+PjsbKEo=?= MARUYAMA Naomasa) Reply-To: maruyama@nic.ad.jp Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Dear David, Sorry for my comment being very late. But I think only 2 weeks comment period for this kind of important problem is too short. So, may propose to extend this commend period for two or three days? >Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:34:04 +0800 >From: "David R. Conrad" >Has your legal advisor returned any comments? Not yet. But I think I will write some questions and comments tonight. Sorry, I am now in rush. ---- N. Maruyama (Vice President of JPNIC) maruyama@nic.ad.jp * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 22 15:20:53 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA08952 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:20:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA08946 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:20:45 +0900 (JST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA19111; Fri, 22 May 1998 01:22:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dal-tx46-48.ix.netcom.com(198.211.44.176) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma019077; Fri May 22 01:21:46 1998 Message-ID: <3564B55E.68F3BC25@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 00:14:41 +0100 From: Jeff Williams Organization: IEG. INC. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Fleming CC: DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: The Unique APNIC View of the IANA References: <01BD8512.F6A8B900@webster.unir.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Jim and all, Jim Fleming wrote: > In the following there is no mention of the fact that Jon Postel (aka IANA) > is a contractor to the U.S. Government. Furthermore, the diagram leads > people to believe that the IANA is under the IAB and the ISOC. I do not > believe that the Internet Society, incorporated as an IRS approved non-profit > company in the United States of America subscribes to this uniqe view. > > There is also no recognition that the DNS data bases for IN-ADDR.ARPA > are stored on the legacy Root Name Servers controlled by the U.S. Government. > Entries in those servers are part of the key to a successful delegation of > IPv4 address space. The IANA as a contractor to the U.S. Government has > been responsible for maintaining those records. This is one more example > of where the authority is derived for delegations of IPv4 Internet Addresses. > APNIC does no recognize this fact even to this day. Yes, Dave Conrad and I exchanged some private post along these lines. He seemed to indicate the very same thing. I find this denial odd and somewhat non-factual. Dave Conrad also indicated directly to me that the IANA is not directly connected by the USG. Now we all know that this is not true. > > > Jim Fleming > > @@@@ ftp://ftp.apnic.net/apnic/archive/apnic-012.txt > > 2.1 Where does APNIC derive its authority? > > In October of 1992, the Internet Engineering and Planning Group > (IEPG) released an RFC (RFC 1366) which described the partitioning of > the IP address space to better support the rapidly growing Internet. Of > those partitions, one was set aside for the Asia and Pacific Rim > > D. Conrad [Page 2] > > APNIC-012.0 February, 1995 > > regions. APNIC was orginially established as a pilot project under the > Asia Pacific Coordinating Committee for Intercontinental Research Net- > works (APCCIRN) and the Asia Pacific Engineering and Planning Group > (APEPG) to administer the address space set aside by RFC 1366. The > APCCIRN/APEPG, later renamed to the Asia Pacific Networking Group > (APNG), was orginally established in Jan, 1992 to help coordinate > research and education networks in conjunction with similar groups in > North America and Europe. Thus, at that time, APNIC could be said to > have derived authority from the APCCIRN/APEPG (APNG). > > However, after the termination of the APNIC pilot project, APNIC > continued as an interrim project (primarily due to the lack of a stable > funding source). Unfortunately, the APNG, being an informal group with > no legal authority or claim to represent the entire AP region could not > provide APNIC with a legal umbrella in the event of legal action regard- > ing APNIC's operation. As such, it was felt by the members of the APNIC > consultative committee that APNIC's authority should be derived from the > Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA), the overall owner of all IP > infrastructure resources. While the IANA could not provide any finan- > cial authority, the IANA is recognized as the root of the Internet > address allocation tree, thus the policies defined by the IANA could > provide a minimum of legal support. > > 2.2 How is APNIC regulated? > > APNIC, being under the IANA is required to adhere to the policies > defined by the IANA, the Internet Architecture Board, and the Internet > Society. Hierarchically, the chain of authority for all Internet regis- > tries can be described as follows: > > Asia Pacific Registry (APNIC) > / > Internet Society -- IAB -- IANA - European Registry (RIPE-NCC) > \ > North American Registry (InterNIC) > > All policies under which APNIC operate are either created or > approved by the IANA or the IAB. These policies, in turn, are derived > from operational requirements of Internet service providers or through > rough consensus in the IETF. At any time, the IANA can overturn a deci- > sion by APNIC (or any of the registries) as provided for in RFC 1366 and > its successor RFC 1466. > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net/IPv8 > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > regards, -- Jeffrey A. Williams DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng. Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC. E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 22 15:50:17 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA09488 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:50:17 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA09454; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:50:04 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805220650.PAA09454@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:07:58 +0800 To: maruyama@nic.ad.jp From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: [JPNIC intl-wg 235] Re: comments on legal documents Cc: intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-Reply-To: <9805220616.AA15081@sunnm.ism.ac.jp> References: <199805220159.KAA00882@teckla.apnic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Maruyama-san, >Sorry for my comment being very late. But I think only 2 weeks comment >period for this kind of important problem is too short. So, may >propose to extend this commend period for two or three days? Of course. Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 23 03:36:02 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id DAA25281 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 23 May 1998 03:36:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id DAA25277 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 03:35:57 +0900 (JST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA18410; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:37:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dal-tx2-40.ix.netcom.com(207.94.120.168) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018387; Fri May 22 13:37:14 1998 Message-ID: <35654D16.B70EAA9A@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:02:00 +0100 From: Jeff Williams Organization: IEG. INC. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dns@iia.net.au, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: Cool it - was Re: DNS: [Oz-ISP] Social Engineering and 2LDs] References: <3.0.5.32.19980522182257.017ca3a0@alpha.ah.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Adam and all, Adam Todd wrote: > > I agree. I havn't attacked anyone. I have attacked Alastairs and Ricks, > >arguments and personal attacks on Adam. It seems approiate in respect > >to both of these fellows seem to have it in for anything that Adam says. > > But Jeff, you've seen this all before, perhaps not so personal though. > Doesn't this bring back memories of July - October 1997 :) Yes. It is an all to familier pattern. One that is sad and regretable to be sure. > > > Attack the MAN not the Ball. Wasn't that the IAHC motto? Unfortunatly, yes it was and still is on the gTLD-Discuss list, and the APNIC-Talk list as well. Jim Flemming was banned unjustifiably in many folks opinions. Sensorship in any of its forms is a bad thing. > > > >As i am new to this list, though I have reviewed the archives, it seems > >form the tenor of previous discussing that Adam agreed with allot of what > >Jim Flemming had to say or the questions he ask. The EC decided to > >Banish Jim Flemming from the list. > > To be lead by a leader - lead by example :) > > Jim might "rant" sometimes, but he has his belife and I see nothing > illogical or harmful, if anything, very EYE OPENING. At least he porvides a diffrent point of view at times. It seems that openess is not somthing that is adaquatly encouraged on some lists. > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > Adam Todd mailto:at@ah.net mailto:at@aus > http://adamtodd.ah.net http://www.ah.net http://www.aursc.ah.net > http://www.ah.net/lists/lwgate Regards, -- Jeffrey A. Williams DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng. Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC. E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 23 03:38:02 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id DAA25296 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 23 May 1998 03:38:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id DAA25292 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 03:37:56 +0900 (JST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA18539; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:39:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dal-tx2-40.ix.netcom.com(207.94.120.168) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018516; Fri May 22 13:38:48 1998 Message-ID: <35655C39.4785F8DA@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:06:34 +0100 From: Jeff Williams Organization: IEG. INC. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Fleming CC: DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net Subject: Re: FW: Off topic : Re: [apnic-talk] Please Moderate or close this list .... (fwd) References: <01BD8557.3A58F7C0@webster.unir.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk jim and all, Jim Fleming wrote: > On Friday, May 22, 1998 3:41 AM, Marc Hurst[SMTP:mhurst@fastlane.ca] wrote: > @Jim, > @ > @I think the point is regardless of whether or not Cisco has a position on > @IPV8 someone has used their position to widely influence opinion across > @the net. It would be no different if I were to dig up my .gc.ca handle > @from ages ago to hammer home Canadian content views. > @ > @Influence peddling is influence peddling regardless of the outcome. We > @are Cisco customers and they have openly accepted a lot of Tim Gibsons > @concepts as models they have pushed on their clients. Why would they > @discourage inovation is beyond me. > @ > @M. > @ > > Your points are noted... I will second that... > > > One of the things that people are NOT addressing in most of these > forums is the clean-up work that will have to NOW start happening > in the U.S. Government. The U.S. Government has an obligation to > start enforcing its federal laws. People keep telling me that they can > not do this because the Internet is "hot" and the public would not > want to see high-ranking Internet leaders indicted, tried and possibly > convicted. Instead, people keep saying that the Internet leaders get > a free pass and get to violate any U.S. federal laws they please in > the interest of expanding the net. This is all part of Internet-mania > that has captivated the world but also caused the world and the > U.S. Government to lower its guard and to forget about enforcing its > own laws. > > As an example...Why have IRS laws about non-profit companies > if people on the Internet can circumvent them and use those laws > to create corporate structures that are worst than for-profit and which > do not serve the community well ? > > Also, why have anti-trust laws when large companies can use the > Internet to circumvent those laws and operate "off-shore" to do as > they please ? > > By the way, this does not just apply in the United States. Look at > the situation in Japan. They have a prominent Internet company like > APNIC operating there with a couple of employees and a borrowed > office. It is registered "off-shore" in the Seychelles and keeps most > of its cash in Singapore. It claims to derive its authority from the IANA > which anyone close to the situation knows is a U.S. Government contractor. > Despite that, the leaders of APNIC discount that and claim to have > nothing to do with the U.S. Government. Then, 2 out of 3 accounting > firms in Japan advise APNIC that they should pay taxes to Japan > and what does APNIC do...?...they decide to form a new APNIC > company in Australia and move there...and the world is supposed to > sit back and assume that the U.S. Government endorses this because > certainly the authority for all this comes from the "IANA"... It certianly appears this way I must sadly admit. > > > As many people have said over and over again, if the Internet industry > was any other industry, banking, insurance, stock brokerage, etc. > there would be several people headed for U.S. federal penitentiaries > at this point in time...law makers and law enforcement officials seem > to be totally baffled by who is abiding by the law and who is not...I > have a feeling this is because they did not grow up with the technology > that has now been unleashed and they therefore can not understand > how it is being used and how it can be applied to the existing legal > systems...this coupled with the fact that every time people try to point > out how existing laws cover the net and vice-versa, the Internet leaders > start a campaign that this is not the case and the law enforcement > people are once again baffled...some day this will not be the case... Lets hope and work together for that someday. And that that someday comes sooner rather than later. > > > - > Jim Fleming > Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net/IPv8 > IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race > AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > > Regards, -- Jeffrey A. Williams DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng. Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC. E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 23 15:26:01 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA06239 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 23 May 1998 15:26:01 +0900 (JST) Received: from sunnm.ism.ac.jp (sunnm.ism.ac.jp [133.58.1.18]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA06233; Sat, 23 May 1998 15:25:55 +0900 (JST) Received: by sunnm.ism.ac.jp (5.67+1.6W/2.08subd-mx) id AA16721; Sat, 23 May 98 15:28:49 JST Date: Sat, 23 May 98 15:28:49 JST Message-Id: <9805230628.AA16721@sunnm.ism.ac.jp> To: davidc@apnic.net Cc: APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-Reply-To: <199805160907.SAA16739@teckla.apnic.net> (davidc@apnic.net) Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents From: maruyama@nic.ad.jp (MARUYAMA Naomasa) Reply-To: maruyama@nic.ad.jp Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Dear David, >Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 17:50:40 +0800 >From: "David R. Conrad" >Technically, I suppose it could be argued (although I'd disagree). One >alternative structure would be to issue shares to all members which means a >large amount of additional complications I think there is another alternative. That is, to define the relation between APNIC and "APNIC corporation" as a contract. Anyway, the relation is an important point to be discussed. Concerning this point, it is little bit hard for me to understand the "Declaration of Trust". Why don't you use trust agreement to define the relation between the beneficiaries(=Executive Council) and the trustee(=David)? I think it's more effective for the beneficiaries to control the corporation. >Instead, the proposal is that the single share be held in trust for the EC >which represents the members. See the Trust Statement for the specific >details. Since the EC is democratically elected by the membership and the >share holder, by the requirements of the Trust Statement, acts on behalf of >and for the EC, I would contend that the structure is NOT an autocracy and >would be interested in seeing your counter-arguments. So the structure is highly dependent on the effectiveness of the Trust Statement, I understand. Here "effectiveness" means that: whether or not lots of rights and responsibilities of the shareholder and directors of "APNIC Pty Ltd" are well controlled by the beneficiaries(=Executive Council). I think this is a quite hard question to answer. Note that in the real world laws and legal contracts sometimes contradicts to each other, and when we face to a contradiction in a particular legal issue we must think about the priority of these laws and contracts. Usually, I understand, public laws have highest priority, so we must keep in mind that the Declaration of Trust might not always an "all-mighty-card". It is little bit hard for me to believe this framework is perfect, but I admit that the proposed structure works for our purpose "to some extent". About this point, our legal advisor says that he feels it quite difficult to check more than one thousand pages of the Corporation law of Australia. >Note however that your analysis is quite true for the existing APNIC >structure. It is indeed an autocracy, and this is THE most critical wart >that needs to be fixed in APNIC's structure as it relies on the goodwill >and honesty of the single share holder to insure APNIC acts on behalf of >its members. In retrospect, it was a mistake to accept this structure and >I apologize to the membership. Does "existing APNIC structure" mean "the Seychelles based" structure? I think the proposed "Australia based" structure still have same wart, and needs to be fixed. >As I believe I explained in the meeting in Manila when you brought this up, >it is my understanding that the concept of "non-profit" applies only to >charitable organizations in Australia and APNIC has not applied for >charitable status, thus I believe it safe to say that APNIC is _not_ a >non-profit organization under Australian law. I think your understanding is wrong, and it's better to check this point with lawyers. I understand ISOC is a non-profit organization under Virginia law, and I suppose there is a similar legal framework in AU. >It is, however, tax exempt for all member derived income (a little over 98% >of our income) by virtue of the Australian interpretation of "the doctrine >of mutuality". Could you give me a reference to this. What's the name of the law this assertion grounded on? >On the contrary, I would contend that given APNIC's Articles of Association >EXPLICITLY define it to be non-profit and that it may never "declare or pay >dividends" (Articles, clause 15.1), whether or not the Australian >government treats APNIC as a "non-profit" is essentially irrelevant. In many countries, whether the government treats the organization non-profit or not is an essential factor in taxation and other things. Probably it's desirable to discuss each issues individually. The tax problem is a one issue, and might be resolved by "the doctrine of mutuality" you mentioned, and I think we must investigate if there is any other issues related to "non-profitness". >Primarily convenience and the speed in which the everything can be >finalized. Also, with the exception of the wart you have noted, I do >subscribe to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" school of thought. Probably I subscribe to a little bit different school. I would like to add some additional codes for safety, which may be redundant, to a system which is not ensured to be perfect. I said that the proposed structure works "to some extent" but I can not believe it is perfect, so I would like to propose to add some "safety codes". Perhaps I will write about this today or tomorrow. ---- N. Maruyama (Vice President of JPNIC) maruyama@nic.ad.jp * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 23 17:36:05 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id RAA09695 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 23 May 1998 17:36:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (nostromo.apnic.net [202.12.28.233]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA09679; Sat, 23 May 1998 17:35:52 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805230835.RAA09679@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 17:18:46 +0800 To: maruyama@nic.ad.jp From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents Cc: APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-Reply-To: <9805230628.AA16721@sunnm.ism.ac.jp> References: <199805160907.SAA16739@teckla.apnic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Maruyama-san, >>Technically, I suppose it could be argued (although I'd disagree). One >>alternative structure would be to issue shares to all members which means a >>large amount of additional complications >I think there is another alternative. That is, to define the relation >between APNIC and "APNIC corporation" as a contract. APNIC is the membership, that is, each individual member, and as such has no legal standing as an independent body outside of the APNIC corporation (or so I am led to understand), thus APNIC itself can make no contracts. That's the whole reason APNIC was incorporated in the first place. Perhaps you mean contracting out the Secretariat function? This would be feasible, however I mentioned the disadvantages that led us to decide against that option in previous mail and would require a radical restructuring of the existing APNIC legal structure. >it is little bit hard for me to understand the "Declaration of Trust". I suspect legalese is hard to understand in any language :-). >Why don't you use trust agreement to define the relation between the >beneficiaries(=Executive Council) and the trustee(=David)? That is, in fact, what the Trust Statement does. >I think it's more effective for the beneficiaries to control the corporation. They do. "1. The Trustee [David Conrad] acknowledges and declares that the Trust Property [the single share of APNIC Pty Ltd] is held on trust by the Trustee [David Conrad] as a trustee for the benefit of the Beneficiaries [the APNIC Executive Council], the Beneficiaries [the APNIC Executive Council] being the sole beneficiaries of this trust." My translation (standard not-a-lawyer disclaimers apply): "I agree that I hold the share of APNIC for the EC and will do what they say." >So the structure is highly dependent on the effectiveness of the Trust >Statement, I understand. Here "effectiveness" means that: whether or >not lots of rights and responsibilities of the shareholder and >directors of "APNIC Pty Ltd" are well controlled by the >beneficiaries(=Executive Council). I think this is a quite hard >question to answer. Not really. If 3 out of 5 of the EC members think the Trustee [the DG] screws up, he is by definition in violation of the trust agreement and bad things happen (e.g., fired, temporary or permanent reduction in pay, flogging with a wet noodle, etc). >Does "existing APNIC structure" mean "the Seychelles based" structure? Yes. >I think the proposed "Australia based" structure still have same wart, >and needs to be fixed. As I have tried to explain, the Trust Statement essentially transfers control of the APNIC Pty Ltd to the Executive Council. As such, the sole shareholder issue is no longer relevant since the sole shareholder can act _only_ "for the benefit of the Beneficiaries". Since the EC is directly elected by the membership and the membership always has veto power over any EC decision, the end result is the membership controls APNIC (which is, I think you'll agree, the most approrpriate situation). >>As I believe I explained in the meeting in Manila when you brought this up, >>it is my understanding that the concept of "non-profit" applies only to >>charitable organizations in Australia and APNIC has not applied for >>charitable status, thus I believe it safe to say that APNIC is _not_ a >>non-profit organization under Australian law. >I think your understanding is wrong, and it's better to check this >point with lawyers. I have spoken with both the lawyers and with KPMG on this issue, thus my understanding, however I will get a verbatim quote for you by Tuesday afternoon. > I understand ISOC is a non-profit organization >under Virginia law, and I suppose there is a similar legal framework >in AU. No. My impression is that the US is somewhat unique in its 501c3 and 501c6 corporations and the relative ease in which those corporations are established. Australia does not have a similar corporate construct -- what a corporation does with its profits is up to it. As APNIC has defined itself to be non-profit and has indicated (AoA, 15.1,2) that it will not pay or declare dividends, it would seem it is as non-profit as is necessary. Australia does have a concept of a charitable organization, however that classification generally applies only to organizations such as hospitals, orphanages, etc. I gather APNIC's chances of obtaining charitable status (which confers the ability for other organizations in Australia to take tax deductions for APNIC fees) are on par with what we were told our chances of getting non-profit status in Japan as a company providing services outside of Japan, that is, _extremely_ small. >>It is, however, tax exempt for all member derived income (a little over 98% >>of our income) by virtue of the Australian interpretation of "the doctrine >>of mutuality". >Could you give me a reference to this. What's the name of the law this >assertion grounded on? I will get the exact reference, however I will fax you the official document from the Australian Tax Office that documents the granting of tax exemption in Australia for (initially) 5 years after which the tax exemption will be reviewed before reissuance. >In many countries, whether the government treats the organization >non-profit or not is an essential factor in taxation and other >things. Not in Australia. My understanding is that APNIC's tax exemption is based on the concept of having a group of entities paying into a common pool for the benefit of all with no entity being able to take out of that pool any more than they put in. The model is that of a sports team, where everybody gives one person a bunch of money to go out an buy equipment for everybody else. Australia doesn't feel it is appropriate to tax the person getting all the money. Australia is the first country I've found that allows the entities to be corporations (profit or non-profit) rather than individuals. >The tax problem is a one issue, and might be resolved by "the doctrine >of mutuality" you mentioned, and I think we must investigate if there >is any other issues related to "non-profitness". In discussion with KPMG yesterday, whether an organization is non-profit is, as mentioned, its own decision. Taxation is, as you say, as separate issue. Non-profit organization can be taxed, however as I have mentioned, APNIC has already received tax exemption for its membership fees. >I said that the proposed >structure works "to some extent" but I can not believe it is perfect, >so I would like to propose to add some "safety codes". Perhaps I will >write about this today or tomorrow. Perfection is notoriously difficult to attain. While I understand and agree with your position, I will again say that there are a few things that are waiting right now on the finalization of these legal documents such as finalizing visas, hiring a new director general, removing the existing APNIC wart, etc., and I feel those issues are somewhat critical (particularly the new DG part :-)), thus the desire to complete the legal formalities. Given you agree that APNIC works "to some extent", perhaps the most efficient way forward would be to complete the legal documents and establish a committee to review the APNIC legal structure and come up with a set of proposed revisions. Those revisions could then be put up to the membership for a vote at the next Annual General Meeting. In that way, you and anyone else interested can spend as much time as necessary to come up with appropriate "safety codes" while at the same time APNIC can finalize its relocation to Australia which was agreed upon by the EC and the membership almost 1 full year ago. Would this be acceptible to you? Thanks, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 23 20:01:03 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id UAA13882 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 23 May 1998 20:01:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id UAA13873; Sat, 23 May 1998 20:00:55 +0900 (JST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA09935; Sat, 23 May 1998 06:03:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dal-tx1-60.ix.netcom.com(207.94.120.124) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009912; Sat May 23 06:03:10 1998 Message-ID: <356648C6.52E54613@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 04:55:53 +0100 From: Jeff Williams Organization: IEG. INC. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: maruyama@nic.ad.jp CC: davidc@apnic.net, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents References: <9805230628.AA16721@sunnm.ism.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Naomasa and all, I have a question that is not exactly in response to your post here, so please excuse the diversion if you would be so kind. Are there any restrictions to someone buying shares in APNIC? MARUYAMA Naomasa wrote: > Dear David, > > >Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 17:50:40 +0800 > >From: "David R. Conrad" > > >Technically, I suppose it could be argued (although I'd disagree). One > >alternative structure would be to issue shares to all members which means a > >large amount of additional complications > > I think there is another alternative. That is, to define the relation > between APNIC and "APNIC corporation" as a contract. Anyway, the > relation is an important point to be discussed. Concerning this point, > it is little bit hard for me to understand the "Declaration of Trust". > Why don't you use trust agreement to define the relation between the > beneficiaries(=Executive Council) and the trustee(=David)? I think it's > more effective for the beneficiaries to control the corporation. > > >Instead, the proposal is that the single share be held in trust for the EC > >which represents the members. See the Trust Statement for the specific > >details. Since the EC is democratically elected by the membership and the > >share holder, by the requirements of the Trust Statement, acts on behalf of > >and for the EC, I would contend that the structure is NOT an autocracy and > >would be interested in seeing your counter-arguments. > > So the structure is highly dependent on the effectiveness of the Trust > Statement, I understand. Here "effectiveness" means that: whether or > not lots of rights and responsibilities of the shareholder and > directors of "APNIC Pty Ltd" are well controlled by the > beneficiaries(=Executive Council). I think this is a quite hard > question to answer. Note that in the real world laws and legal > contracts sometimes contradicts to each other, and when we face to a > contradiction in a particular legal issue we must think about the > priority of these laws and contracts. Usually, I understand, public > laws have highest priority, so we must keep in mind that the > Declaration of Trust might not always an "all-mighty-card". It is > little bit hard for me to believe this framework is perfect, but I > admit that the proposed structure works for our purpose "to some > extent". About this point, our legal advisor says that he feels it > quite difficult to check more than one thousand pages of the > Corporation law of Australia. > > >Note however that your analysis is quite true for the existing APNIC > >structure. It is indeed an autocracy, and this is THE most critical wart > >that needs to be fixed in APNIC's structure as it relies on the goodwill > >and honesty of the single share holder to insure APNIC acts on behalf of > >its members. In retrospect, it was a mistake to accept this structure and > >I apologize to the membership. > > Does "existing APNIC structure" mean "the Seychelles based" structure? > I think the proposed "Australia based" structure still have same wart, > and needs to be fixed. > > >As I believe I explained in the meeting in Manila when you brought this up, > >it is my understanding that the concept of "non-profit" applies only to > >charitable organizations in Australia and APNIC has not applied for > >charitable status, thus I believe it safe to say that APNIC is _not_ a > >non-profit organization under Australian law. > > I think your understanding is wrong, and it's better to check this > point with lawyers. I understand ISOC is a non-profit organization > under Virginia law, and I suppose there is a similar legal framework > in AU. > > >It is, however, tax exempt for all member derived income (a little over 98% > >of our income) by virtue of the Australian interpretation of "the doctrine > >of mutuality". > > Could you give me a reference to this. What's the name of the law this > assertion grounded on? > > >On the contrary, I would contend that given APNIC's Articles of Association > >EXPLICITLY define it to be non-profit and that it may never "declare or pay > >dividends" (Articles, clause 15.1), whether or not the Australian > >government treats APNIC as a "non-profit" is essentially irrelevant. > > In many countries, whether the government treats the organization > non-profit or not is an essential factor in taxation and other > things. Probably it's desirable to discuss each issues individually. > The tax problem is a one issue, and might be resolved by "the doctrine > of mutuality" you mentioned, and I think we must investigate if there > is any other issues related to "non-profitness". > > >Primarily convenience and the speed in which the everything can be > >finalized. Also, with the exception of the wart you have noted, I do > >subscribe to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" school of thought. > > Probably I subscribe to a little bit different school. I would like > to add some additional codes for safety, which may be redundant, to a > system which is not ensured to be perfect. I said that the proposed > structure works "to some extent" but I can not believe it is perfect, > so I would like to propose to add some "safety codes". Perhaps I will > write about this today or tomorrow. > > ---- > N. Maruyama (Vice President of JPNIC) > maruyama@nic.ad.jp > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * > * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * -- Jeffrey A. Williams DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng. Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC. E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sat May 23 20:21:28 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id UAA14234 for apnic-talk-out; Sat, 23 May 1998 20:21:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id UAA14214; Sat, 23 May 1998 20:21:12 +0900 (JST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA25199; Sat, 23 May 1998 06:23:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dal-tx1-60.ix.netcom.com(207.94.120.124) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma025139; Sat May 23 06:23:09 1998 Message-ID: <35664D7B.C0848162@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 05:15:58 +0100 From: Jeff Williams Organization: IEG. INC. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David R. Conrad" CC: maruyama@nic.ad.jp, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents References: <199805160907.SAA16739@teckla.apnic.net> <199805230835.RAA09679@teckla.apnic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk David and all, David R. Conrad wrote: > Maruyama-san, > > >>Technically, I suppose it could be argued (although I'd disagree). One > >>alternative structure would be to issue shares to all members which means a > >>large amount of additional complications > >I think there is another alternative. That is, to define the relation > >between APNIC and "APNIC corporation" as a contract. > > APNIC is the membership, that is, each individual member, and as such has > no legal standing as an independent body outside of the APNIC corporation > (or so I am led to understand), thus APNIC itself can make no contracts. > That's the whole reason APNIC was incorporated in the first place. Excuse me David, but wouldn't this depend under both Japanese and Australian law depend directly on the amount of standing that a specific member would have? > > > Perhaps you mean contracting out the Secretariat function? This would be > feasible, however I mentioned the disadvantages that led us to decide > against that option in previous mail and would require a radical > restructuring of the existing APNIC legal structure. I would think that doing this would be not in the advantage in the long run, to APNIC. It would be a slippery slope at best. It could also invite some legal protraction's as well early on if restructured in this manner. > > > >it is little bit hard for me to understand the "Declaration of Trust". > > I suspect legalese is hard to understand in any language :-). True. But there are many practical and historic examples. > > > >Why don't you use trust agreement to define the relation between the > >beneficiaries(=Executive Council) and the trustee(=David)? > > That is, in fact, what the Trust Statement does. How is this determined? Is this determined by the holding of shares by the membership? Can that member direct his/her shares to a different trustee? > > > >I think it's more effective for the beneficiaries to control the corporation. > > They do. > > "1. The Trustee [David Conrad] acknowledges and declares that the Trust > Property [the single share of APNIC Pty Ltd] is held on trust by the > Trustee [David Conrad] as a trustee for the benefit of the Beneficiaries > [the APNIC Executive Council], the Beneficiaries [the APNIC Executive > Council] being the sole beneficiaries of this trust." > > My translation (standard not-a-lawyer disclaimers apply): Good thing David. I don't think that this is legal. Anyone holding shares either private or public, can appoint any trustee of their choice for those said shares. I believe that this is also true in Japan and Australia. Trade agreements insist on this to be so. > > > "I agree that I hold the share of APNIC for the EC and will do what they say." I don't think this will fly legally. > > > >So the structure is highly dependent on the effectiveness of the Trust > >Statement, I understand. Here "effectiveness" means that: whether or > >not lots of rights and responsibilities of the shareholder and > >directors of "APNIC Pty Ltd" are well controlled by the > >beneficiaries(=Executive Council). I think this is a quite hard > >question to answer. > > Not really. If 3 out of 5 of the EC members think the Trustee [the DG] > screws up, he is by definition in violation of the trust agreement and bad > things happen (e.g., fired, temporary or permanent reduction in pay, > flogging with a wet noodle, etc). LOL! Or possible legal action. > > > >Does "existing APNIC structure" mean "the Seychelles based" structure? > > Yes. > > >I think the proposed "Australia based" structure still have same wart, > >and needs to be fixed. > > As I have tried to explain, the Trust Statement essentially transfers > control of the APNIC Pty Ltd to the Executive Council. As such, the sole > shareholder issue is no longer relevant since the sole shareholder can act > _only_ "for the benefit of the Beneficiaries". Since the EC is directly > elected by the membership and the membership always has veto power over any > EC decision, the end result is the membership controls APNIC (which is, I > think you'll agree, the most approrpriate situation). Ahhhhh! I see. I agree. SO therefore the amount of standing of each member is directly correspondent to the number of shares that Member holds. Is this essentially correct? > > > >>As I believe I explained in the meeting in Manila when you brought this up, > >>it is my understanding that the concept of "non-profit" applies only to > >>charitable organizations in Australia and APNIC has not applied for > >>charitable status, thus I believe it safe to say that APNIC is _not_ a > > >>non-profit organization under Australian law. > >I think your understanding is wrong, and it's better to check this > >point with lawyers. > > I have spoken with both the lawyers and with KPMG on this issue, thus my > understanding, however I will get a verbatim quote for you by Tuesday > afternoon. I would also be interested in this info David. > > > > I understand ISOC is a non-profit organization > >under Virginia law, and I suppose there is a similar legal framework > >in AU. > > No. My impression is that the US is somewhat unique in its 501c3 and 501c6 > corporations and the relative ease in which those corporations are > established. Australia does not have a similar corporate construct -- what > a corporation does with its profits is up to it. As APNIC has defined > itself to be non-profit and has indicated (AoA, 15.1,2) that it will not > pay or declare dividends, it would seem it is as non-profit as is > necessary. Australia does have a concept of a charitable organization, > however that classification generally applies only to organizations such as > hospitals, orphanages, etc. I gather APNIC's chances of obtaining > charitable status (which confers the ability for other organizations in > Australia to take tax deductions for APNIC fees) are on par with what we > were told our chances of getting non-profit status in Japan as a company > providing services outside of Japan, that is, _extremely_ small. > > >>It is, however, tax exempt for all member derived income (a little over 98% > >>of our income) by virtue of the Australian interpretation of "the doctrine > >>of mutuality". > >Could you give me a reference to this. What's the name of the law this > >assertion grounded on? > > I will get the exact reference, however I will fax you the official > document from the Australian Tax Office that documents the granting of tax > exemption in Australia for (initially) 5 years after which the tax > exemption will be reviewed before reissuance. > > >In many countries, whether the government treats the organization > >non-profit or not is an essential factor in taxation and other > >things. > > Not in Australia. My understanding is that APNIC's tax exemption is based > on the concept of having a group of entities paying into a common pool for > the benefit of all with no entity being able to take out of that pool any > more than they put in. The model is that of a sports team, where everybody > gives one person a bunch of money to go out an buy equipment for everybody > else. Australia doesn't feel it is appropriate to tax the person getting > all the money. Australia is the first country I've found that allows the > entities to be corporations (profit or non-profit) rather than individuals. Brazil does the same thing. > > > >The tax problem is a one issue, and might be resolved by "the doctrine > >of mutuality" you mentioned, and I think we must investigate if there > >is any other issues related to "non-profitness". > > In discussion with KPMG yesterday, whether an organization is non-profit > is, as mentioned, its own decision. Taxation is, as you say, as separate > issue. Non-profit organization can be taxed, however as I have mentioned, > APNIC has already received tax exemption for its membership fees. > > >I said that the proposed > >structure works "to some extent" but I can not believe it is perfect, > >so I would like to propose to add some "safety codes". Perhaps I will > >write about this today or tomorrow. > > Perfection is notoriously difficult to attain. > > While I understand and agree with your position, I will again say that > there are a few things that are waiting right now on the finalization of > these legal documents such as finalizing visas, hiring a new director > general, removing the existing APNIC wart, etc., and I feel those issues > are somewhat critical (particularly the new DG part :-)), thus the desire > to complete the legal formalities. > > Given you agree that APNIC works "to some extent", perhaps the most > efficient way forward would be to complete the legal documents and > establish a committee to review the APNIC legal structure and come up with > a set of proposed revisions. Those revisions could then be put up to the > membership for a vote at the next Annual General Meeting. In that way, you > and anyone else interested can spend as much time as necessary to come up > with appropriate "safety codes" while at the same time APNIC can finalize > its relocation to Australia which was agreed upon by the EC and the > membership almost 1 full year ago. > > Would this be acceptible to you? > > Thanks, > -drc > > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * > * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * Regards, -- Jeffrey A. Williams DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng. Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC. E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Sun May 24 18:29:51 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id SAA07874 for apnic-talk-out; Sun, 24 May 1998 18:29:51 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (dialup-nas1-46.gc.fan.net.au [203.23.134.47]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA07859; Sun, 24 May 1998 18:29:29 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805240929.SAA07859@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 18:10:01 +0800 To: Jeff Williams From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents Cc: maruyama@nic.ad.jp, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp In-Reply-To: <35664D7B.C0848162@ix.netcom.com> References: <199805160907.SAA16739@teckla.apnic.net> <199805230835.RAA09679@teckla.apnic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Jeff, >> APNIC is the membership, that is, each individual member, and as such has >> no legal standing as an independent body outside of the APNIC corporation >> (or so I am led to understand), thus APNIC itself can make no contracts. >> That's the whole reason APNIC was incorporated in the first place. > Excuse me David, but wouldn't this depend under both Japanese and Australian >law depend directly on the amount of standing that a specific member would have? Not sure if I parsed your sentence correctly, but no. Specific members have whatever legal standing they have in their country. However the aggregate entity composed of all those members (APNIC) has no legal standing outside of the context of the corporation created to conduct APNIC's legal business (APNIC Ltd in the Seychelles and APNIC Pty Ltd in Australia). >> That is, in fact, what the Trust Statement does. > How is this determined? Is this determined by the holding of shares by >the membership? Can that member direct his/her shares to a different >trustee? I thought in other mail you said you had reviewed the apnic-talk archives? To reiterate, there is exactly one share. It is held in trust by the Director General for the APNIC Executive Council so your question is irrelevant. >> "1. The Trustee [David Conrad] acknowledges and declares that the Trust ... >> My translation (standard not-a-lawyer disclaimers apply): > Good thing David. I don't think that this is legal. I suspect the lawyers who drew up the Trust Statement, Freehill, Hollingdale, and Page (one of the larger firms in Australia) would be a bit surprised to hear that their work was not legal. >SO therefore the amount of standing of each member >is directly correspondent to the number of shares that Member holds. Is this >essentially correct? No. As mentioned above, there is exactly one share. Please see the By-Laws for the standing of members. Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Mon May 25 11:08:36 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA22035 for apnic-talk-out; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:08:36 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (dialup-nas1-30.bris.fan.net.au [202.179.224.31]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA22018; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:08:12 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805250208.LAA22018@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:51:32 +0800 To: maruyama@ism.ac.jp From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents Cc: APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp, executive-council In-Reply-To: <9805242251.AA18851@sunnm.ism.ac.jp> References: <199805230835.RAA09679@teckla.apnic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Maruyama-san, >>Given you agree that APNIC works "to some extent", perhaps the most >>efficient way forward would be to complete the legal documents and >>establish a committee to review the APNIC legal structure and come up with >>a set of proposed revisions. Those revisions could then be put up to the >>membership for a vote at the next Annual General Meeting. In that way, you >>and anyone else interested can spend as much time as necessary to come up >>with appropriate "safety codes" while at the same time APNIC can finalize >>its relocation to Australia which was agreed upon by the EC and the >>membership almost 1 full year ago. >> >>Would this be acceptible to you? > >Amongst all, I would like to respond to this part first. > >Do you mean that we first complete the legal process with the current >drafts, and then establish a committee to discuss for amendments, and >vote in the next Annual General Meeting(probably in next January or >February)? > >I think it's better you suggest a time table and discuss about it here. I would propose that: a) the documents as found on at http://www.apnic.net/legal/legal.html are accepted and finalized on the condition that: b) the APNIC Executive Council establish a committee of the membership and that the committee established would review the established APNIC legal documents with a goal of producing a set of recommendations for revisions. c) An initial draft of the the recommendations would be made available to the membership at the next APNIC meeting, presumably held sometime in the August - October timeframe. d) The final draft of the recommendations would then be put before the membership for voting at the next APNIC Annual General Meeting, presumably held sometime in first quarter, 1999. Regards, -drc * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Tue May 26 14:17:08 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id OAA25307 for apnic-talk-out; Tue, 26 May 1998 14:17:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA25299; Tue, 26 May 1998 14:17:01 +0900 (JST) Received: from vucqpqlj (user-38lc8h4.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.34.36]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA03725; Tue, 26 May 1998 01:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980526011930.030351ec@mindspring.com> X-Sender: iquest1@mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 01:19:30 -0400 To: "David R. Conrad" From: Jay Fenello Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: PAB Opens Mailing List Cc: ripe-list@ripe.net, naipr@arin.net, apnic-talk@apnic.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hi David, Here is a posting about open lists, due process, and the public good. FYI & FWIW. Jay. >Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 00:31:54 -0400 >To: Kent Crispin >From: Jay Fenello >Subject: Re: PAB Opens Mailing List >Cc: DOMAIN-POLICY@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET, pab@gtld-mou.org, > gtld-discuss@gtld-mou.org > >At 10:24 PM 5/23/98 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote: >>On Sun, May 24, 1998 at 12:38:32AM -0400, Jay Fenello wrote: >>> >> Apparently the PAB now has an readable >>> >> archive of their mailing list. Only the recent >>> >> entries are included. >>> > >>> >The PAB voted to open the list archive as of Jan 1. This is >>> >relatively old news -- >>> >>> This might be old news to you, but it certainly is new >>> news to me. More importantly, making a list archive >>> readable is not the same thing as making a mailing list >>> open. >>> >>> One of the reason's that the Internet community desires >>> open and transparent processes is so that all sides in a >>> controversy may have an equal opportunity to state their >>> position. In other words, you are more likely to hear >>> opposing points of view on an *open* list. >> >>Indeed. That is why gtld-discuss exists. The PAB list is for PAB to >>conduct its business, and is the means by which PAB votes. > > >I fail to see why one precludes the other . . . > >I am reminded of the history of C-SPAN. C-SPAN began >cablecasting the U.S. House of Representatives on March 19, >1979. The Senate, however, resisted broadcasting their >proceedings for over seven years. > >As I remember it, the Senators were concerned that it would >impact their abilities to do what Senators do if the people >they *represented* could see them doing it :-) > >To make a long story short, on June 2, 1986 the Senate >finally allowed their proceedings to be televised. No >major disruptions occurred, and in fact, many suggest >that we now have better government because of it. > >What concerns me about your statement is the implication >that because business and voting occur on a list, people >who are interested in its proceedings should be excluded. >And just like the Senators quickly realized, I believe >these restrictions are unfounded. > >With the pending release of the White Paper, we will >hopefully have some answers to the following questions >on Internet governance: > - who will have authority for what. > - what legal jurisdiction(s) will be used to resolve > conflicts. > - what coordinated functions will be managed for the > public good. > >IMHO, those functions that are being managed for the public >good *MUST* have open processes. Unfortunately, we seem to >be moving in the opposite direction. > >Over the last couple of days, we have seen some of the >organizations that currently manage Internet resources >take actions to quiet dissenting voices on their lists. > >While there may be occassions where this is warranted, I do >object to the lack of due process that was used. Without a set >of list standards , >any actions taken against any individual may be considered >arbitrary and biased, and potentially unfair. > >In closing, if PAB really wants to evolve to become the Policy >Advisory Board to the new Name Council (if that should come to >pass), I suggest that it become more inclusive with a more open >list. > >Given the technical skills available in this community, there >is no reason why we can't use Internet techonology to provide >for a free and open flow of information. Let's work together >to make *Internet* governance the *best* governance the world >has ever known. > > >Regards, > >Jay Fenello >President, Iperdome, Inc. >404-250-3242 http://www.iperdome.com > * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Wed May 27 10:54:36 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id KAA15054 for apnic-talk-out; Wed, 27 May 1998 10:54:36 +0900 (JST) Received: from nostromo.apnic.net (dialup-nas1-48.bris.fan.net.au [202.179.224.49]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA15038 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 10:54:24 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199805270154.KAA15038@teckla.apnic.net> X-Sender: davidc@apnic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 09:24:04 +0800 To: apnic-talk@apnic.net From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: [apnic-talk] Fwd: Re: governance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:35:19 -0700 From: postel@ISI.EDU Subject: Re: governance An update from the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA). IANA is continuing to provide the neutral, central coordinating functions for the global Internet. As we await the United States government's final statement on the "Improvement of Technical Management of Internet Names and Addresses" (also known as the "Green Paper"), we are in the process of reorganizing and restructuring the IANA organization. This process will create an independent, not-for-profit corporation. The new IANA will establish separate offices from the University of Southern California and its Information Sciences Institute, where IANA is now located. We are selecting legal representation and preparing initial bylaws and articles of incorporation. The bylaws are being constructed to allow for international representation on the board of directors by address registries, domain name registries and registrars, protocol organizations, and the user/industry community. Since the deadline for having this organized may not permit a fully representative board to be in place initially, we expect to create a transitional board who will then conduct a process to establish the first fully functioning board with world-wide representation of all constituencies. In the spirit of community self-governance, we welcome your advice and suggestions. * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Thu May 28 11:04:48 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA02030 for apnic-talk-out; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:04:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail1.cisco.com (mail1.cisco.com [171.68.225.60]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA02016 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:04:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com (singapore-async-151.cisco.com [171.68.85.151]) by mail1.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id TAA14593; Wed, 27 May 1998 19:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Barry Raveendran Greene" To: Subject: [apnic-talk] FW: Quick High Speed Survey of International BW Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:02:01 +0800 Message-ID: <006901bd89dc$9ad4f520$985544ab@bgreene-pc.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk [Apologies for the duplicates.] Hello Everyone, I'm taking a quick survey of the DS-3 (or higher) across the Pacific. Please check the list and make an corrections.... Daecom 1 x 45 Mbps Korea Telecom 1 x 45 Mbps Inet 1 x 45 Mbps IIJ 2 x 45 Mbps, 1 155 Mbps KDD 3 x 45 Mbps ITJ 1 x 45 Mbps TelKom Malaysia 1 x 45 Mbps Jaring 1 x 45 Mbps HiNet 1 x 45 Mbps ChinaNet 1 x 45 Mbps HKT NetPlus 1 x 45 Mbps SingTel IX 2 x 45 Mbps Telstra 3 x 45 Mbps (equilivant) Does anyone know anything about other? How about Optius, New Zealand, AT&T, Global One, AUNET, etc. etc.? I'll repost the updated list. Thanks, Barry -- -- -- Barry Raveendran Greene | || || | Senior Consultant | || || | Corporate Consulting | |||| |||| | Office of the CTO | ..:||||||:..:||||||:.. | e-mail: bgreene@cisco.com | C i s c o S y s t e m s | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ PGP Public Key is registered at http://pgp5.ai.mit.edu/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 29 00:03:51 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA14709 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 29 May 1998 00:03:51 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail1.cisco.com (mail1.cisco.com [171.68.225.60]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id AAA14704; Fri, 29 May 1998 00:03:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com (singapore-async-152.cisco.com [171.68.85.152]) by mail1.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id IAA14553; Thu, 28 May 1998 08:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Barry Raveendran Greene" To: Subject: [apnic-talk] Update: Quick High Speed Survey of International BW Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 23:01:57 +0800 Message-ID: <00b801bd8a49$8fed9640$985544ab@bgreene-pc.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk [Again - apologies for the duplicates ....] Hello again. Figured I send an update out tonight with the information that flowed in today. I got some messages from people who thought I was nuts about the amount of bandwidth heading towards the US. This is reality. Some of the ISPs listed may not have their whole 45 Mbps opened to their Internet flow (i.e. they use Frame Relay and pump other services with the Internet traffic), but all these circuits are real. Here's the updated list .... if you've got more information, please send. Daecom 1 x 45 Mbps Korea Telecom 1 x 45 Mbps Inet 1 x 45 Mbps IIJ 2 x 45 Mbps, 1 155 Mbps KDD 3 x 45 Mbps ITJ 1 x 45 Mbps TelKom Malaysia 1 x 45 Mbps Jaring 1 x 45 Mbps HiNet 1 x 45 Mbps ChinaNet 1 x 45 Mbps HKT NetPlus 1 x 45 Mbps SingTel IX 2 x 45 Mbps Telstra 3 x 45 Mbps (one unidirectional) Tokyo Internet 1 x 45 Mbps Infoweb (Fujitsu) 1 x 45 Mbps mesh (NEC) 1 x 45 Mbps IDC 2 x 45 Mbps NTT-WT 1 x 45 Mbps LinkAGE Ltd. 1 x 45 Mbps Optius 1 x 45 Mbps (simplex satellite) Global One (AU) 1 x 45 Mbps Seednet 1 x 45 Mbps (not confirmed) AT&T Worldnet Japan 1 x 45 Mbps Ozemail 1 x 45 Mbps I also heard that IDC, Arcstar(NTT-WT), and some more in Japan have a T3 circuits. Any confirmations? Thus far, we're got over 1.5 Gbps of AP <--> circuits over 45 Mbps! BTW - I'm pulling this information together be used for some APIA briefing papers. The issue of International Internet Infrastructure Financing (I3F) will be discussed at the APEC Ministerial meeting next week. APIA's objective it to open dialog at all levels - all the way to the ministerial level. If anyone is interested, please let me know. Also, if you think this sort of data useful, please let me know. At the last APOPS meeting we discussed whether the role of APOPS should be to collect this sort of data for the benefit of the region's operators. If you think this is a good idea, we might find a way to keep this data up to date. Thanks, Barry -- -- -- Barry Raveendran Greene | || || | Senior Consultant | || || | Corporate Consulting | |||| |||| | Office of the CTO | ..:||||||:..:||||||:.. | e-mail: bgreene@cisco.com | C i s c o S y s t e m s | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ PGP Public Key is registered at http://pgp5.ai.mit.edu/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 29 00:46:09 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA15150 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 29 May 1998 00:46:09 +0900 (JST) Received: from sunnm.ism.ac.jp (sunnm.ism.ac.jp [133.58.1.18]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id AAA15138; Fri, 29 May 1998 00:45:56 +0900 (JST) Received: by sunnm.ism.ac.jp (5.67+1.6W/2.08subd-mx) id AA26566; Thu, 28 May 98 08:37:04 JST Date: Thu, 28 May 98 08:37:04 JST Message-Id: <9805272337.AA26566@sunnm.ism.ac.jp> To: davidc@apnic.net Cc: APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp, executive-council@apnic.net In-Reply-To: <199805250208.LAA22018@teckla.apnic.net> (davidc@apnic.net) Subject: Re: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents From: maruyama@nic.ad.jp (MARUYAMA Naomasa) Reply-To: maruyama@nic.ad.jp Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk >Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:51:32 +0800 >From: "David R. Conrad" >Cc: APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, > kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp, > executive-council >I would propose that: > >a) the documents as found on at http://www.apnic.net/legal/legal.html are >accepted and finalized on the condition that: > >b) the APNIC Executive Council establish a committee of the membership and >that the committee established would review the established APNIC legal >documents with a goal of producing a set of recommendations for revisions. > >c) An initial draft of the the recommendations would be made available to >the membership at the next APNIC meeting, presumably held sometime in the >August - October timeframe. > >d) The final draft of the recommendations would then be put before the >membership for voting at the next APNIC Annual General Meeting, presumably >held sometime in first quarter, 1999. Thanks, David. I know a) is urgent for various reason, but still this is not acceptable to me. My main concern is decision making process in this structure. I think my opinion is very much similar to that of Mr. Obata, and probably it takes a couple of time to discuss it. So here, I restrict myself to proposing only one point in modifying the current draft documents, and for the remaining part b), c), and d), I would like to accept David's proposal. The only point of modification I propose is to introduce audit. Some thing like this: Executive Council may apoint auditors. Auditors may investigate all the activities of APNIC and the coporation including activities of Directors and members of the corporation. The corporation shall pay all expense needed for audit. My English maybe not good. Please correct it. I think this kind of audit is indispensable for ensuring reasonable "governance" of the system by the Executive Council. Could you ask the law firm how we can implement my idea? ---- N. Maruyama (Vice President of JPNIC) maruyama@nic.ad.jp * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net * From owner-apnic-talk Fri May 29 15:16:27 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA27179 for apnic-talk-out; Fri, 29 May 1998 15:16:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from iisc.ernet.in (iisc.ernet.in [144.16.64.3]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA27120; Fri, 29 May 1998 15:12:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from ece.iisc.ernet.in by iisc.ernet.in (ERNET-IISc/SMI-4.1) id LAA21556; Fri, 29 May 1998 11:38:18 +0530 Received: by ece.iisc.ernet.in (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25758; Fri, 29 May 98 11:38:46+0530 From: gopi@ece.iisc.ernet.in (Gopi K Garge) Message-Id: <9805290608.AA25758@ece.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: [apnic-talk] Re: comments on legal documents To: maruyama@nic.ad.jp Date: Fri, 29 May 98 11:38:46 GMT+5:30 Cc: davidc@apnic.net, APNIC-TALK@apnic.net, ip-wg@nic.ad.jp, intl-wg@nic.ad.jp, kdd-hk@ats.sjk.kdd.co.jp, ec-satou@kdd.co.jp, mo-abe@kdd.co.jp, executive-council@apnic.net In-Reply-To: <9805272337.AA26566@sunnm.ism.ac.jp>; from "MARUYAMA Naomasa" at May 28, 98 8:37 am Phone: 91 80 334 0855 Request-Delivery-Notification: TRUE X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-apnic-talk@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Dear Maruyama, MARUYAMA Naomasa sez: > The only point of modification I propose is to introduce audit. Some > thing like this: > Executive Council may apoint auditors. > Auditors may investigate all the activities of APNIC and the > coporation including activities of Directors and members of the > corporation. The corporation shall pay all expense needed for audit. > I think this kind of audit is indispensable for ensuring reasonable > "governance" of the system by the Executive Council. Audit is important. Do we also imply a technical audit .. as in audit of resource allocation and administration ? > Could you ask the law firm how we can implement my idea? -- Regards, --Gopi Garge ERNET India * APNIC-TALK: General APNIC Discussion List * * To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apnic-talk-request@apnic.net *