From owner-apple Wed Nov 5 03:57:34 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id DAA08572 for apple-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:57:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from sigma.itu.ch (sigma.itu.ch [156.106.128.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id DAA08567 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:57:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from ties.itu.ch (ties.itu.ch) by ITU.CH (PMDF V5.0-6 #16074) id <01IPMH55YLVS9S3OZV@ITU.CH>; Tue, 04 Nov 1997 19:59:42 +0200 Received: from bob.itu.ch (usr0-11.itu.ch [156.106.192.164]) by ties.itu.ch (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA07718; Tue, 04 Nov 1997 19:59:12 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 21:04:39 +0100 From: Robert Shaw Subject: gTLD-MoU News (November 4, 1997) To: robert.shaw@itu.int Message-id: <345F7FD7.8C669766@itu.int> Organization: ITU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3403EA1E.CD30DE69@itu.int> <343C71B4.1581393@itu.int> <34465444.AAB0241E@itu.int> <344B4583.D40F5323@itu.int> <34508F23.EBC2B20@itu.int> Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk gTLD-MoU News (November 4, 1997) Special note: If you are receiving this news through subscription to either the gtld-announce@gtld-mou.org or gtld-discuss@gtld-mou.org mailing lists, unsubscription information is available at http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/maillist.htm The following updates have been posted on the gTLD-MoU web site at http://www.gtld-mou.org. As always, news announcements relating to the gTLD-MoU can be found at http://www.gtld-mou.org/index.html#news. November 4, 1997: [Press Release] Emergent Announces the Signing of Contract with Internet Council of Registrars (CORE). Emergent Corporation, a leading professional services firm in the area of scalable application design and development, today announced that it has signed a contract with the Internet Council of Registrars (CORE) to build and operate the new Internet Domain Name Shared Registry System (SRS). See http://www.emergent.com/epress/erelease/core.html and http://www.emergent.com/ework/dns.html Robert -- Robert Shaw (shaw@itu.int) Advisor, Global Information Infrastructure International Telecommunication Union (http://www.itu.int) Place des Nations, 1211 Geneva 20, Switzerland ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Wed Nov 5 05:18:44 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id FAA08958 for apple-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:18:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from belzebub.net-gw.com ([202.185.254.12] (may be forged)) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with SMTP id FAA08946 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:17:28 +0900 (JST) Received: (from dinesh@localhost) by belzebub.net-gw.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA03198; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:12:55 +0800 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:12:54 +0800 (MYT) From: Dinesh Nair X-Sender: dinesh@belzebub.net-gw.com To: APPLE , Asian Internet Marketing Subject: FC: Domain name bandit arrested; report on Internet state summit (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:41:27 -0500 From: Declan McCullagh To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu Subject: FC: Domain name bandit arrested; report on Internet state summit --- The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/) November 4, 1997 NIC-tie Party by Noah Robischon (noah@pathfinder.com) The feds finally caught up with Eugene Kashpureff. They've been investigating him since July, when for four days he fooled computers into bypassing the servers that control the world's supply of Internet domain names. After the heist, Kashpureff disappeared -- he knew there'd be big trouble somewhere at the end of his high-speed line. The arrest warrant claims that Kashpureff "unleashed software on the Internet that interrupted service for tens of thousands of Internet users worldwide and caused significant economic damage to others," and that he "'hijacked' Internet users attempting to reach the InterNIC Web site." That's wire fraud, plain and simple, according to the FBI's New York-based Computer Crime Unit, which filed the complaint on September 12. [...] --- Regards, /\_/\ "All dogs go to heaven." dinesh@alphaque.com (0 0) +==========================----oOO--(_)--OOo----============================+ | for a in past present future; do | | for b in clients employers associates relatives neighbours pets; do | | echo "The opinions here in no way reflect the opinions of my $a $b." | | done; done | +===========================================================================+ http://pgp.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=0x230096E9 ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Wed Nov 5 12:17:39 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id MAA11983 for apple-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:17:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from geocities.com ([209.1.224.25] (may be forged)) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA11978 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:17:33 +0900 (JST) Received: from yapcs-r2 (yapcs-r2.iscs.nus.sg [137.132.85.230]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA29424; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:17:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <345FE57F.FDE6FED@geocities.com> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 11:18:23 +0800 From: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Organization: VLSM-TJT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.30 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RMS-TJT Subject: DNS-101: Some basic principles Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hello: Just in case you are interested, I wrote a brief introduction about DNS at http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6825/imho-e-dns101.html tabemakasih, -- Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim - CEO VLSM-TJT - http://www.tjt.or.id/rms46 *MEMEX: an enlarged intimate memory supplement (Vannevar Bush 1945) ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Nov 13 15:16:39 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA28223 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:16:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from green.glocom.ac.jp (glocom.ac.jp [210.160.32.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA28218 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:16:36 +0900 (JST) Received: from dyn045.glocom.ac.jp (dyn045.glocom.ac.jp [210.160.33.45]) by green.glocom.ac.jp (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ta007949 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:19:21 +0900 X-Sender: ajp@popper.glocom.ac.jp Message-Id: X-Mailer: Macintosh Eudora Pro Version 2.1.3-Jr2 Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:18:04 +0900 To: apple@apnic.net From: ajp@glocom.ac.jp (Adam Peake) Subject: Internet Domain Name Trademark Protection, hearings Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk See URL House Judiciary Committee, Subcommittee on Courts & Intellectual Property oversight hearing regarding "Internet Domain Name Trademark Protection" -- November 5, 1997 Statements online from: The Honorable Bruce Lehman, Assistant Secretary of Commerce and Commissioner of Patents and Trademarks, Patent and Trademark Office, United States Department of Commerce Gabriel A. Battista, Chief Executive Officer Network Solutions, Inc. Michael Kirk, Executive Director American Intellectual Property Law Association David Stimson, President International Trademark Association John Wood, Senior Internet Consultant PRINCE, plc Douglas J. Wood, Executive Partner Hall, Dickler, Kent, Friedman & Wood on behalf of the Coalition for Advertising Supported Information and Entertainment (CASIE) ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Nov 14 05:27:14 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id FAA02842 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 05:27:14 +0900 (JST) Received: from sigma.itu.ch (sigma.itu.ch [156.106.128.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id FAA02834 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 05:27:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from ties.itu.ch (ties.itu.ch) by ITU.CH (PMDF V5.0-6 #16074) id <01IPZ4WBKXJ0A23B99@ITU.CH>; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:29:26 +0200 Received: from bob.itu.ch (usr0-10.itu.ch [156.106.192.163]) by ties.itu.ch (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21802; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:28:39 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:34:20 +0100 From: Robert Shaw Subject: gTLD-MoU News (November 13, 1997) To: gtld-news@gtld-mou.org Message-id: <346B725C.846D8090@itu.int> Organization: ITU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3403EA1E.CD30DE69@itu.int> <343C71B4.1581393@itu.int> <34465444.AAB0241E@itu.int> <344B4583.D40F5323@itu.int> <34508F23.EBC2B20@itu.int> <3459BD72.6FEC66E1@itu.int> Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk gTLD-MoU News (November 13, 1997) Special note: If you are receiving this news through subscription to either the gtld-announce@gtld-mou.org or gtld-discuss@gtld-mou.org mailing lists, unsubscription information is available at http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/maillist.htm The following updates have been posted on the gTLD-MoU web site at http://www.gtld-mou.org. As always, news announcements relating to the gTLD-MoU can be found at http://www.gtld-mou.org/index.html#news. November 13, 1997: The gTLD-MoU interim Policy Oversight Committee, after reviewing responses received to the public request for comments Notice-97-02: "Review of new generic Top Level Domains (gTLDs)", consultation with the Council of Registrars (CORE), and the gTLD-MoU Policy Advisory Body (PAB), has concluded a review of the 7 gTLD names suggested in the final report of the International Ad Hoc Committee's (IAHC's) Recommendations for Administration and Management of gTLDs. The conclusions of this review are confirmation of .firm, .web, .info, .art, .rec & .nom as names of new gTLDs and the replacement of .store with the gTLD .shop. See http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/rfc-results.htm#97-02 Concerning the November 25, 1997 meeting "Internet domain name system - European information meeting on the gTLD-MoU (sponsored by the European Commission, DG XIII)in Brussels, Belgium, the venue for this meeting has been changed and additional reduced-rate hotel information is now available. Please see http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/meetings.html#nov25 Robert -- Robert Shaw (shaw@itu.int) Advisor, Global Information Infrastructure International Telecommunication Union (http://www.itu.int) Place des Nations, 1211 Geneva 20, Switzerland ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Nov 14 09:24:34 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id JAA03966 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:24:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from bandung.webindonesia.com (bandung.webindonesia.com [207.106.122.252]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA03960 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:24:29 +0900 (JST) Received: (qmail 4812 invoked from network); 14 Nov 1997 01:29:12 -0000 Received: from yapcs-r2.iscs.nus.sg (HELO yapcs-r2) (137.132.85.230) by tjt.or.id with SMTP; 14 Nov 1997 01:29:12 -0000 Message-ID: <346B9A84.363D7AC5@indonesia.isworld.org> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:25:40 +0800 From: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Organization: VLSM-TJT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.30 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apple@apnic.net Subject: http://indonesia.isworld.org : Indonesian ISWorld Net Country Page (experiment) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Aloha: * I have just updated "DNS-101 - Some Basic Principles" at http://www.tjt.or.id/rms46/imho-e-dns101.html * I am also experimenting a new domain for the Indonesian ISWorld Net Country Page, i.e.: http://indonesia.isworld.org as well as their related "mandatory" email addresses: - postmaster@indonesia.isworld.org, a standard contact address for email related issues, - hostmaster@indonesia.isworld.org, a standard contact address for domain / zone related issues, - webmaster@indonesia.isworld.org, a standard contact address for web related issues. - abuse@indonesia.isworld.org, a "relative new" standard contact address for abuse / spamming related issues. - ibrahim@indonesia.isworld.org, a STTTM free contact address:-). * Basically, http://indonesia.isworld.org is just an alias for http://isworld1.tjt.or.id, which can be also accessed through http://www.tjt.or.id/isworld, which is actually hosted by WebIndonesia (http://www.webindonesia.com) - thanks to Bung L. Larry in College Park, MD. The physical location of the web server itself is subject to change; once in Virginia, also in Pennsylvania, and who knows where else. * The alternate Indonesian ISWorld Net Country Page is http://isworld.tjt.or.id, which is hosted by IndoInternet (http://www.indo.net.id) in Jakarta, Indonesia - thanks to Bung Sanjaya. Whereas, there will be another mirror at GlobalNetLink (http://www.globalnetlink.com) - thanks to my GruWo alliances. Mahalo, -- Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim - ibrahim@indonesia.isworld.org (experimental only) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sun Nov 16 16:05:50 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id QAA17598 for apple-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 16:05:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from farley.cisco.com (farley.cisco.com [204.179.2.54]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id QAA17592 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 16:05:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from kiwi.cisco.com (kiwi [199.35.98.98]) by farley.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id XAA15899 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:07:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com ([171.68.85.150]) by kiwi.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/CISCO.WS.1.2) with SMTP id XAA16298 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:08:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:05:27 +0800 Message-ID: <01BCF2A1.12650CC0.bgreene@cisco.com> From: Barry Raveendran Greene Reply-To: "bgreene@cisco.com" To: "'APPLe'" Subject: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:56:24 +0800 Organization: Cisco Systems - Corporate Consulting Group X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Click Here CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Wired News Report 10:00am 14.Nov.97.PST -- In a ruling that confirms there is something good about the Communications Decency Act, the US Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals has upheld a provision of the law that protects Internet service providers from legal liability for content users publish on company servers. The appeals court on Wednesday affirmed a Virginia US District Court panel's finding in Zeran v. America Online Inc.. AOL was sued for failing to act quickly enough to remove message-board postings that prompted a flood of hate mail and harassing phone calls to a Seattle man, Kenneth Zeran, who in 1995 was falsely identified on the boards as selling souvenirs celebrating the Oklahoma City federal building slaughter. The case turned on Section 230(c)(1) of the act: "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider." The District Court panel found in a piece of reasoning affirmed by the appeals court that the provision makes service providers immune from liability for information published by third parties. The provision has been cited in other cases, too. Lawyers for a San Diego ISP, Electriciti, cited the clause in fending off a similar lawsuit by San Francisco satanists who claimed the company was liable for anonymous Usenet postings. A US District Court judge in San Francisco dismissed the suit in September based on the CDA provision. In June, the Supreme Court struck down the central provisions of the law, which sought to make it illegal to publish indecent content on the Internet. Search Wired News: Have a story or tip for Wired News? Send it here. Or send us your feedback. Part of the Wired Digital family, including Hotwired, Wired magazine online, Cocktail, The Rough Guide, HotBot, NewsBot, and Suck. Copyright ? 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and Affiliated Companies. All rights reserved. Click Here -- -- -- Barry Raveendran Greene | || || | Senior Consultant | || || | Corporate Consulting Engineering | |||| |||| | tel: +65 738-5535 ext 235 | ..:||||||:..:||||||:.. | e-mail: bgreene@cisco.com | c i s c o S y s t e m s | ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sun Nov 16 22:26:01 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id WAA19042 for apple-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:26:01 +0900 (JST) Received: from pathfinder.com ([204.71.242.18] (may be forged)) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id WAA19037 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:25:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from [204.254.22.5] (mg-20425422-5.ricochet.net [204.254.22.5]) by pathfinder.com (*private*/SMI-SVR4) with ESMTP id IAA24820; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:28:00 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: relay.pathfinder.com: Host mg-20425422-5.ricochet.net [204.254.22.5] claimed to be [204.254.22.5] X-Sender: declan@mail.pathfinder.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BCF2A1.12650CC0.bgreene@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:26:50 -0500 To: "bgreene@cisco.com" From: Declan McCullagh Subject: Re: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Cc: "'APPLe'" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Two points: 1. The provisions weren't "upheld" as much as never challenged. 2. Of course there was "something good about the CDA," if you're an online service. The immunizing portion of the CDA was put in there as a political buyoff so AOL Prodigy etc. wouldn't oppose the CDA. -Declan At 14:56 +0800 11/16/97, Barry Raveendran Greene wrote: > Click Here > CDA's ISP Protections Upheld > Wired News Report > > 10:00am 14.Nov.97.PST -- In a ruling that confirms there is something good >about the Communications Decency Act, the US Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals >has upheld a provision of the law that protects Internet service providers >from legal liability for content users publish on company servers. > ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Mon Nov 17 04:58:36 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id EAA20304 for apple-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 04:58:36 +0900 (JST) Received: from gizmo.dimension.net (gizmo.dimension.net [209.12.7.20]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id EAA20299 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 04:58:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from bdooley.dimension.net (slip-32-100-117-234.va.us.ibm.net [32.100.117.234]) by gizmo.dimension.net (8.8.5/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23459; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:01:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971116150924.00ab4070@gizmo.dimension.net> X-Sender: bdooley@gizmo.dimension.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:09:32 -0500 To: Declan McCullagh From: Barbara Dooley Subject: Re: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Cc: apple@apnic.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk I agree with Declan about many things, but disagree about his interpretation of the history of the CDA time. The political reality was that the CDA was going to pass. CIX worked very hard to get the carve out language to protect ISPs/OSPs. And we--as well as AOL--were part of the CIEC coalition that supported the Supreme Court challenge of the CDA. The "content regulation" issue is going to be an on-going dialogue between regulators, governments, users and service providers,for a long time to come in the US and around the world. (Coats is only one example we'll face in 1998). Because it is difficult to identify individuals on the Internet, the tendency is to want the service providers to monitor user conduct and--even worse--carry liability for it. Barbara A. Dooley Executive Director Commercial Internet eXchange Association At 08:26 AM 11/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >Two points: > >1. The provisions weren't "upheld" as much as never challenged. > >2. Of course there was "something good about the CDA," if you're an online >service. The immunizing portion of the CDA was put in there as a political >buyoff so AOL Prodigy etc. wouldn't oppose the CDA. > >-Declan > ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Mon Nov 17 10:40:51 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id KAA22003 for apple-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:40:51 +0900 (JST) Received: from armstrong.apic.net (armstrong.apic.net [203.22.101.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id KAA21998 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:40:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from boss.apic.net (boss.apic.net [203.22.102.40]) by armstrong.apic.net (8.8.6/APIC-2.1) with SMTP id MAA04978 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:44:02 +1100 (EST) X-Org: The Asia Pacific Internet Company Pty. Ltd. X-URL: http://www.apic.net/ Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971117123851.00d11bcc@mail.apic.net> X-Sender: bala@mail.apic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:38:51 +1100 To: apple@apnic.net From: Bala Pillai Subject: Do Politicians Take the Internet Seriously? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Dear friends, There is obviously a certain nexus that has politicians to take some areas of the Internet seriously. My call is that it has to do with the influence of the site/listserv vis-a-vis traditional media among opinion leaders. This in turn in these early days has a lot to do with the array of open media available in a society. Below's a retort from a Minister in the Malaysian Prime Minister's Department to a post by MGG Pillai, list-owner of Sangkancil . MGG's a journalist shunned by mainstream Malaysian media and banned in Singapore so the Internet is the only means through which the audience can hear his incisive commentaries. Question - have you seen or heard of other current affairs listservs/websites in Asia that attract responses from government/politicians? cheers.../bala bala@apic.net **forwarded message** To: sangkancil@malaysia.net CC: sk@malaysia.net Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:39:34 Subject: [sangkancil] Apology Requested by Minister in the Prime Minister's Department From: pillai@mgg.pc.my (M.G.G. Pillai) Sender: owner-sangkancil@malaysia.net Reply-To: pillai@mgg.pc.my (M.G.G. Pillai) The following letter from the Press Secretary to the Minister in the Prime Minister's Department, dated 25 October 1997, I received this morning in my post box at the General Post Office at the Dayabumi Complex. Since I had not cleared my box for five days, it must have come since then. (This, by the way, is not unusual with the Post Office: another letter inviting me to a Deepavali Open House on 30 October was posted a week earlier and arrived with this letter) ------------- PEJABAT MENTERI DI JABATAN PERDANA MENTERI JABATAN PERDANA MENTERI Tel: 2588443 MALAYSIA Kawat: PERDANA JALAN DATO' ONN Fax: 2913945 50502 KUALA LUMPUR Ruj. Tuan Ruj. Kami: MJPM/AAB/28/SL Tarikh: 25 October 1997 Mr. M.G.G. Pillai KUALA LUMPUR Dear Sir, RE: WE DO NOT NEED A CHIEF MINISTER I refer to the above article appearing on the internet of October 5, 1997. 2. I have been instructed by the Honourable Minister Dato' Abang Abu Bakar bin Datu Bandar Abang Haji Mustapha, Minister in the Prime Minister's Department to catergorically deny the contents in the said article as regards his health. At no time was the Minister suffering from "a weak heart that he may need a heart transplant" and that a foreign delegation who came to negotiate with Petronas went back empty-handed because he was seriously ill and could not initiat the document. Both facts were untrue. 3. I would therefore request that you withdraw your above statement and apologise to the Minister publicly through the internet as soon as possible. Thanks you. Yours sincerely, Sgd. (ALI ZULFAKAR BIN ZAINAL ABIDIN) Press Secretary to the Minister in the Prime Minsiter's Department. --------------------- M.G.G. Pillai writes: I am happy to withdraw the statements that the Minister had "a weak heart and may need a heart transplant" and that a foreign delegation who came to negotiate with Petronas went away empty handed because he was ill and could not initial the document. His health is then not at risk, and he is in the running to be chief minister of Sarawak. I am glad. Thank you for the clarification. I would add, however, that when I first heard of this late last year from my sources that included Petronas and the foreign delegation, I attempted to check this with the Minister's private office and his press secretary's office, but both declined to return my calls despite repeated calls. They were busy, unavailable or otherwise unable to take the call. Since the Minister's health is not a matter of concern, as the press secretary says, when then this reluctance to answer press queries about it? I went with what my sources told me, but I clearly was wrong. MGG ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Mon Nov 17 11:56:15 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA22421 for apple-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:56:15 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail1.ntu.ac.sg ([155.69.1.33] (may be forged)) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA22416 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:56:10 +0900 (JST) Received: by MAIL1 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:58:03 +0800 Message-ID: From: Ang Peng Hwa To: "'Bala Pillai'" , apple@apnic.net Subject: RE: Do Politicians Take the Internet Seriously? Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:55:03 +0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Bala, Thanks for keeping us posted on the events with SangKancil. Quite civil responses from both sides. I hope the exchange ends there but the civility continues. On your question: >Question - have you seen or heard of other current affairs >listservs/websites in Asia that attract responses from government/politicians? I take it the thrust of the question is directed towards political speech. There are 2 parts-listservs and websites. The websites one is quite easy. You should have responses from many people. There are a lot of sites that have attracted responses from politicians/government on political speech. Korea has active censorship. Japan has regulations on what can be posted on websites during elections. Ditto Singapore-where sites from both the ruling party and the opposition had to pull down certain pages. Now you have the Malaysian example. Listservs are trickier. I do not know of any that has attracted responses from politicians as yet. And the reason they are tricky is that listservs are a lot like email. Currently, the only Asian country that *seems* to have censorship of email is Vietnam. I say seem because people say faxes are monitored and they figure email is too, altho' there are no reported cases of anyone being "vigorously interviewed" for sending stuff out through email. However, all Vietnamese are cautious with email. Another tricky one is auto-responders of email. They work like this: there is an icon on the webpage. You click it, and you get an auto-responded email. Can this be used as a means to bypass webpage censorship? Finally, your question implies that politicians see the Internet as being increasingly significant in its impact on politics. I am not so sure. It seems to me that another of the reasons that governments are regulating the Internet with a lighter hand is that there is not that great an impact on politics, at least in Asia and the countries I am familiar with. I look forward to data that would correct me on this but, as is customary with all academics, I think I am right. :-) Regards, Ang Peng Hwa ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Mon Nov 17 12:54:20 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id MAA22934 for apple-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:54:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from armstrong.apic.net (armstrong.apic.net [203.22.101.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA22929 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:54:14 +0900 (JST) Received: from boss.apic.net (boss.apic.net [203.22.102.40]) by armstrong.apic.net (8.8.6/APIC-2.1) with SMTP id OAA11897; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:57:20 +1100 (EST) X-Org: The Asia Pacific Internet Company Pty. Ltd. X-URL: http://www.apic.net/ Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971117145211.00f1dcf0@mail.apic.net> X-Sender: bala@mail.apic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:52:11 +1100 To: Ang Peng Hwa From: Bala Pillai Subject: RE: Do Politicians Take the Internet Seriously? Cc: apple@apnic.net In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk At 10:55 AM 11/17/97 +0800, Ang Peng Hwa wrote: >Thanks for keeping us posted on the events with SangKancil. Quite civil >responses from both sides. I hope the exchange ends there but the >civility continues. Most welcome - however there's more than meets the eye in these civil exchanges. >There are a lot of >sites that have attracted responses from politicians/government on >political speech. Can you name me one or two? - URLs would be fantastic. >Finally, your question implies that politicians see the Internet as >being increasingly significant in its impact on politics. I am not so >sure. It seems to me that another of the reasons that governments are >regulating the Internet with a lighter hand is that there is not that >great an impact on politics, at least in Asia and the countries I am >familiar with. I look forward to data that would correct me on this but, >as is customary with all academics, I think I am right. :-) You're right and wrong. If at all possible, politicians would like to think that the Internet has no impact on politics. But most astute politicians wouldn't take that for granted. Now, of course the politicians are not going to tell one that - that's why academic studies won't uncover this. Take that exchange for instance. Why did the Minister respond to the post if he felt that the Internet does not have an impact? Did he make a mistake in so doing? It's not a clear-cut answer but my gut feel is that in this situation he simply had to. In my opinion/conjecture he wants to be a top candidate for the Sarawak Chief Minister's post. He is ill and that could affect his standing as a candidate. Many who have influence over the decision think he is ill. A few who have first hand experience affirm he is ill. Journalists who press him get no or evasive answers (what else is new in politics?). Internet discussions further heighten the fact that he is ill. He gets asked by more people who count around him whether he is ill or not and Internet posts are referred to. It's getting to be too much. He *has* to issue a denial to mitigate damage and improve his chances. But is the denial a statement of fact? All I can say is - that is politics and we *have* to read between the lines. The Internet just enables us to corroborate opinions/facts faster and in this aspect, it has a *major* impact. Some observations - right now it appears to have more impact on intra-party factional politics than on inter-party politics. And it's impact is a function of the influence of the personalities on the listserv/web-site archives and of the sources of information of those who post. As with any phenomena in these early days, the issue is not so much whether it has a lot of impact or little impact but the speed and acceleration at which the impact is moving. Extrapolation of latter is what is salient and interesting I think. cheers.../bala bala@apic.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- bala pillai bala@apic.net * For quick info on AIM send blank founder * asian internet marketing (aim) cybercommunity ph: +61 2 9419 5333 fax: +61 2 9419 5155 where pan-asian internet marketing, media and sales pioneers mingle. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Mon Nov 17 13:04:08 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id NAA23114 for apple-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:04:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from pradeshta.net (root@[203.190.0.1] (may be forged)) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id NAA23103 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:04:00 +0900 (JST) Received: from jajabor.pradeshta.net (jajabor.pradeshta.net [203.190.0.43]) by pradeshta.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA31423 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:12:17 +0600 Message-ID: <346FC2CB.BBF@pradeshta.net> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:06:35 +0600 From: "Samudra E. Haque" Reply-To: haque@pradeshta.net Organization: PraDeshta Limited X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apple@apnic.net Subject: [Fwd: Re: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <346FC272.7A62@pradeshta.net> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:05:06 +0600 From: "Samudra E. Haque" Reply-To: haque@pradeshta.net Organization: PraDeshta Limited X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Barbara Dooley Subject: Re: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld References: <3.0.32.19971116150924.00ab4070@gizmo.dimension.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara Dooley wrote: > in 1998). Because it is difficult to identify individuals on the Internet, > the tendency is to want the service providers to monitor user conduct > and--even worse--carry liability for it. I've often thought that my biggest difficulty in explaining the internet is its "intangibility" - you can't see it, you can't feel and you can't touch it, yet "users" are on the internet and their everyday life is affected by it. I'm not exactly sure about the final disposition of the parentage of the internet (i.e., did the congressional hearings prove that the US Gov't is indeed still the parent of the internet concept as it claims (through the senator who was presiding over the hearings)) or is it a case of a delinquent child abandoned by its parents and having to grow up with out family support in a tough neighborhood. If the US still claims that the internet is an US product and should be protected by "US control" are they willing to accept that due to the way the internet was originally development you can't identify individuals or content (with confidence) and therefore cannot be controlled (with confidence) ? If "stuff" is added that can identify users and contents onto an "intangible" network to make it identifiable and regular (i.e., tangible) then that couldn't be legitimately called the Internet would it? Is it possible that people are confusing different issues due to lack of knowledge: Name service administration TCP/IP - universal wide area network protocol Web Services FTP Archives Security/Personal Certificates/Authentication EDI all of the above (and more) make up the fabric of the Internet, but the DNS issue is just one of them, in fact without the DNS the internet works just fine, we could perhaps go back (with difficulty!) to just IP numbers, or a modified way of "symbol" to "IP Number" mapping. Was the recent involvement by the US Gov't because they couldn't realise the DNS is NOT the internet ? ----------------- Samudra E. Haque PraDeshta Limited Bangladesh ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Mon Nov 17 14:29:57 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id OAA23684 for apple-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:29:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from armstrong.apic.net (armstrong.apic.net [203.22.101.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA23679 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:29:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from boss.apic.net (boss.apic.net [203.22.102.40]) by armstrong.apic.net (8.8.6/APIC-2.1) with SMTP id QAA17083; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:33:07 +1100 (EST) X-Org: The Asia Pacific Internet Company Pty. Ltd. X-URL: http://www.apic.net/ Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971117162800.006aa654@mail.apic.net> X-Sender: bala@mail.apic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:28:00 +1100 To: apple@apnic.net From: Bala Pillai Subject: Anti Spam Relay Judgement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Thought you might find this useful. You would think that this would reduce spam - I only see an increase from US sources using us as a relay - need to figure out a US lawyer who'll act on contingency. Know anybody? :-( cheers../bala bala@apic.net http://www.apic.net The Judgement In the District Court of Travis County, Texas, 345th Judicial District No. 97-06273 TRACY LaQUEY PARKER, ZILKER INTERNET PARK, INC., PATRICK PARKER, PETER RAUCH, TEXAS INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDERS ASSOCIATION and EFF-AUSTIN, Plaintiffs, vs. C.N. ENTERPRISES and CRAIG NOWAK, Defendants. FINAL JUDGMENT After notice to all parties, this matter came before the Court on November 10, 1997 for a final trial on the merits. Based on the pleadings on file and the evidence presented this day to the Court, the Court enters the following as its order, findings and rulings: 1. Plaintiff Tracy LaQuey Parker is the owner of the Internet domain name flowers.com. Ms. Parker, along with her husband Patrick Parker and Peter Rauch, are business partners who have used the Internet domain name flowers.com as part of their business enterprise. 2. Plaintiff Zilker Internet Park, Inc., was the administrator of the Internet domain name flowers.com at all relevant times and was the Internet service provider for the Parkers. Electronic mail addressed to any address at flowers.com was routed through Zilker Internet Park's Internet mail servers. 3. The Plaintiffs had the exclusive right to use the Internet domain name flowers.com, and did not give permission to any outside persons, including the Defendants, to make any commercial use of that name. 4. On or about March 31 and April 1, 1997, the Defendants sent unsolicited= mass junk mailings (also known as spam) over the Internet to many thousands, perhaps millions, of people. In its spam, the Plaintiffs used a false electronic return addresses to disguise the junk mailings' origins. The false return addresses used were owned by Tracy LaQuey Parker of Austin, Texas, and hosted on the computers of Zilker Internet Park, an Austin Internet service provider. 5. Because many thousands of the Internet addresses were not valid addresses, thousands upon thousands of copies of junk mail were returned to Ms. Parker and her business associates via Zilker Internet Park's computers. This massive, unwanted delivery of the Defendants' garbage to the Plaintiffs' doorstep inflicted substantial harm, including substantial service disruptions, lost access to communications, lost time, lost income and lost opportunities. 6. In addition, the Defendants unauthorized use of the flowers.com domain name caused actual damages and irreparable harm to Zilker Internet Park. The Defendants used Zilker Internet Park's electronic mail handling resources and storage capacity without permission. The company was forced to handle thousands and thousands of bounced e-mail messages, which temporarily disabled its mail server. 7. After the filing of this lawsuit, additional identical mass mailings were made with identical language as the spam inflicted on the Plaintiffs. The evidence indicates that the Defendants are continuing to send unsolicited mass mailings over the Internet. At least some of these messages were addressed to addresses at the same flowers.com domain name used and owned by the Plaintiffs. From this evidence, and from the circumstances of the initial mailing using flowers.com as the return address, it appears from the preponderance of the evidence that Defendants acted knowingly. 8. In light of the evidence, the Court finds that the Plaintiffs are entitled to a permanent injunction. The Defendants did not and do not have the legal right to use flowers.com as a return address for their mass mailing, and the Defendants unauthorized use of that address constituted a common law nuisance and trespass. The Court additionally finds that the Plaintiffs have suffered, and will continue to suffer if not enjoined, irreparable harm in the form of diminution in value of Plaintiffs' domain name; the possibility that Plaintiffs' reputation will be damaged forever by unauthorized use of a domain name associated with them in the controversial and hated practice of Internet spamming; and service disruptions. The potential harm to the Plaintiffs cannot be adequately valued in damages, and therefore the Plaintiffs have no adequate remedy at law. The balance of interests favors a permanent injunction, as the Defendants will suffer no harm in being denied the right to use the flowers.com domain name return address. 9. The Court further finds that the Plaintiffs, including the Plaintiffs Texas Internet Service Providers Association and its members, and EFF-Austin and its members, will suffer irreparable harm if the Defendants are not prohibited from using other Internet domain names without permission as the return addresses of their mass mailings. If the Defendants are not enjoined from using other domain names without permission, the Defendants will continue to cause the same injuries that were inflicted upon the Plaintiffs, yet evade any effective review or remedy for their actions. 10. The Court further finds that Plaintiffs Tracy LaQuey Parker, Patrick Parker, Peter Rauch and Zilker Internet Park suffered actual damages from the unauthorized actions of the Plaintiffs, including lost time, lost income, lost business opportunities and lost use of their respective computer systems. The Court also finds that it was necessary for the Plaintiffs to retain the services of attorneys in order to redress this damages, and that the Plaintiffs are entitled to an award of their reasonable attorney's fees. IT IS THERFORE ORDERED that Defendants C.N. Enterprises and Craig Nowak, jointly and singly, their officers, agents, servants, employees, and attorneys, and any other persons in active concert or participation with them who receive actual notice of this order by personal service or otherwise, be and there hereby are permanently enjoined from the following: 1. Sending or causing to be sent any Internet electronic mail message or other electronic communication using the domain name flowers.com as any portion of the return address of that message, or otherwise using the domain name flowers.com in any portion of the message header information. 2. From sending any Internet electronic mail or other electronic communication incorporating in any electronic return address information any Internet domain name without the express written permission of the owner and administrator of that Internet domain name. IT IS FURTHER ORDERED, ADJUDGED and DECREED that Plaintiffs Tracy LaQuey Parker, Patrick Parker, Peter Rauch, and Zilker Internet Park, Inc., have and recover from Defendants C.N. Enterprises and Craig Nowak, jointly and severally, their actual damages in the amount of $13,910 and attorney's fees in the amount of $5,000 and that in addition to this total amount of $18,910 Plaintiffs Tracy LaQuey Parker, Patrick Parker, Peter Rauch, and Zilker Internet Park, Inc., have and recover from C.N. Enterprises and Craig Nowak their costs of Court and post-judgment interest at the rate of ten percent (10%) per annum compounded annually from and after the date of November 10, 1997. All relief not previously granted or specifically granted herein is denied. SIGNED this 10th day of November, 1997. /s/ Suzanne Covington TRAVIS COUNTY DISTRICT JUDGE --------------------------------------------------------------------- bala pillai bala@apic.net * For quick info on AIM send blank founder * asian internet marketing (aim) cybercommunity ph: +61 2 9419 5333 fax: +61 2 9419 5155 where pan-asian internet marketing, media and sales pioneers mingle. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Mon Nov 17 19:23:38 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id TAA25309 for apple-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:23:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail1.ntu.ac.sg ([155.69.1.33] (may be forged)) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA25304 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:23:33 +0900 (JST) Received: by MAIL1 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:25:29 +0800 Message-ID: From: Ang Peng Hwa To: "'APPLe'" Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:22:28 +0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Section 230=A9(1) of the act: "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider." The District Court panel found in a piece of reasoning affirmed by the appeals court that the provision makes service providers immune from liability for information published by third parties. Er, before you uncork the champagne . . . . Three, no, two (depreciated) cents: 1. This is the "Good Samaritan" provision of the CDA and was intended to overrule the Prodigy case in which IBM was considered to have failed to edit such undesirable material. The Prodigy outcome was wrong from a policy viewpoint but lawyers have reconciled it on the basis of a breach of contract: Prodigy promised to censor and they failed to censor. ISPs were, rightly, worried. Hence this Good = Samaritan provision. So in principle, it makes sense. 2. But if the CDA went too far with the indecency provision, it may now have gone too far with this Good Samaritan provision. I am not so sure that people would necessarily agree with the ruling that, to quote Wired, ISPs would be "immune[d] from liability for information = published by third parties." Imagine the plaintiff in this case: Kenneth Zeran. Just an ordinary Ken. What the ruling means is this: he tells AOL his problems and AOL, under this CDA provision, can sit back and do = nothing. And nothing happens. To AOL, to the server, to the postings. But all hell breaks loose on Ken. I do not have enough of the case but it seems to me AOL was no Good Samaritan. If so, why should it be rewarded like = a Good Samaritan?=20 3. I think a sensible law would be to have a reasonable period for ISPs to withdraw the offending material. Failure to withdraw after the period would be deemed to be acquiescing and the ISP *may* then be sued or prosecuted. This is the Singapore (and, I think, Australian) position. I think that it makes sense to reward Good Samaritans but = they have to be good. 4. Minor point: as I understand it, the CDA was drafted in a hurry. I think we are seeing the results. Regards, Ang Peng Hwa ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Nov 18 05:12:37 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id FAA28786 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 05:12:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from gatekeeper.pipermar.com (firewall-user@gatekeeper.pipermar.com [206.181.226.34]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with SMTP id FAA28781 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 05:12:31 +0900 (JST) Received: by gatekeeper.pipermar.com; id PAA06932; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:12:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199711172012.PAA06932@gatekeeper.pipermar.com> Received: from unknown(192.168.100.12) by gatekeeper.pipermar.com via smap (3.2) id xma006873; Mon, 17 Nov 97 15:12:36 -0500 Received: by BALTMSG1 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:15:17 -0500 From: "Halpert, James - DC" To: "'APPLe'" , Ang Peng Hwa Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:14:00 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On November 17, 1997 at 5:22AM, Ang Peng Hwa wrote: >2. But if the CDA went too far with the indecency provision, it may >now have gone too far with this Good Samaritan provision. . . . >What the ruling means is this: he tells AOL his >problems and AOL, under this CDA provision, can sit back and do nothing. >And nothing happens. To AOL, to the server, to the postings. But all >hell breaks loose on Ken. I do not have enough of the case but it seems >to me AOL was no Good Samaritan. If so, why should it be rewarded like a >Good Samaritan? >3. I think a sensible law would be to have a reasonable period for >ISPs to withdraw the offending material. Failure to withdraw after the >period would be deemed to be acquiescing and the ISP *may* then be sued >or prosecuted. This is the Singapore (and, I think, Australian) >position. I think that it makes sense to reward Good Samaritans but they >have to be good. . . . . >Regards, Ang Peng Hwa I understand your sentiments, but think that the Section 230 issue is more complicated than the hypothetical suggests. AOL may not be a good samaritan in this regard, but there are convincing arguments for not holding it liable. ( Indeed, this question is closely related to the issue of ISP liability for third party copyright infringements raised by implementation of the WIPO treaties.) Put yourself in the position of AOL for a moment (or for any ISP that hosts web sites and receives complaints about the content that third parties may have posted to the site without the ISP's involvement). How do you know if the information posted is defamatory? How do you know if it is even untrue? How do you know whether the person contacting you requesting removal of material really is who they say they are? These are serious questions. They not only place a significant burden on ISPs/OSPs who are simply in the business of providing server space for 3rd party postings, they also raise serious questions of fairness to the person who posted the content in question. Furthermore, there is a serious question -- depending upon one's ideological views and cultural perspective -- about whether it is socially desirable for ISPs/OSPs even to be censoring content posted to "unmoderated" discussion groups or servers. Best -- Jim Halpert ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Nov 18 10:10:44 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id KAA01166 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:10:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from iron.singnet.com.sg (iron.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.29]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id KAA01161 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:10:38 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from isjfvzjl (ts900-1917.singnet.com.sg [165.21.158.69]) by iron.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11029; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:13:28 +0800 (SGT) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 09:11:15 Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld To: "'APPLe'" , Ang Peng Hwa , "Halpert, James - DC" X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Great discussion. Thanks for initiating it. I tend to agree with Jim as he rightly points out the difficulty of knowing if the reporting party is legitimate and the complaint true. To expect the ISP to take down the material, would be to expect them to act judge of the situation. If they do, and it is subsequently found to be an unfounded complaint, they could get sued by the innocent party for having taken sides and caused them financial harm, etc. I think it has to be courts or other relevant regulatory authority that has to make these types of judgments, before an ISP can be expected to take down the offending material. Laina RG --- On Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:14:00 -0500 "Halpert, James - DC" wrote: On November 17, 1997 at 5:22AM, Ang Peng Hwa wrote: >3. I think a sensible law would be to have a reasonable period for >ISPs to withdraw the offending material. Failure to withdraw after the >period would be deemed to be acquiescing and the ISP *may* then be sued >or prosecuted. This is the Singapore (and, I think, Australian) >position. I think that it makes sense to reward Good Samaritans but they >have to be good. . . . . >Regards, Ang Peng Hwa Put yourself in the position of AOL for a moment (or for any ISP that hosts web sites and receives complaints about the content that third parties may have posted to the site without the ISP's involvement). How do you know if the information posted is defamatory? How do you know if it is even untrue? How do you know whether the person contacting you requesting removal of material really is who they say they are? These are serious questions. They not only place a significant burden on ISPs/OSPs who are simply in the business of providing server space for 3rd party postings, they also raise serious questions of fairness to the person who posted the content in question. Furthermore, there is a serious question -- depending upon one's ideological views and cultural perspective -- about whether it is socially desirable for ISPs/OSPs even to be censoring content posted to "unmoderated" discussion groups or servers. Best -- Jim Halpert ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------------------- Name: Laina Raveendran Greene E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg Date: 11/18/97 Time: 9:11:15 AM This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Nov 18 11:51:19 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA01971 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:51:19 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail1.ntu.ac.sg ([155.69.1.33] (may be forged)) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA01966 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:51:14 +0900 (JST) Received: by MAIL1 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:53:11 +0800 Message-ID: From: Ang Peng Hwa To: "'Halpert, James - DC'" , "'APPLe'" Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:50:10 +0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Jim wrote: >Put yourself in the position of AOL for a moment (or for any ISP that >hosts web sites and receives complaints about the content that third >parties may have posted to the site without the ISP's involvement). How do you >know if the information posted is defamatory? How do you know if it is even >untrue? > >How do you know whether the person contacting you requesting removal >of material really is who they say they are? These are serious >questions. > >They not only place a significant burden on ISPs/OSPs who are simply in >the business of providing server space for 3rd party postings, they also >raise serious questions of fairness to the person who posted the content in >question. > The points about the identity of the person making the complaints have some force but I think there are some solutions and I offer them below. The point about ISPs being "simply in the business of providing server space" has to be addressed. First, those were not the facts in the Zeran vs AOL case. AOL is not "simply in the business of providing server space." AOL, like many if not all ISPs, encourage content. To allow AOL to win the case would mean that they have a licence to encourage any kind of posting and no one can do anything. In effect, AOL has First Amendment rights. Ok, legally, technically not quite 'cos they are not press publisher. But suing AOL for libel would be even harder than suing the New York Times. At least with NYT, the courts have to interpret the limits of the First Amendment. AOL simply points to the statute. Second, it means that the rights of individuals have been reduced by the Net. If the same information about Zeran had appeared in the NYT, the paper would have to correct it. AOL, after encouraging people to post, now says they are not responsible for anything whatsoever. >Furthermore, there is a serious question -- depending upon one's >ideological >views and cultural perspective -- about whether it is socially >desirable for ISPs/OSPs even to be censoring content posted to >"unmoderated" discussion groups or servers. Again, these are not the facts in the case. Some guy had all hell break loose on him. He draws the attention of a multimillion dollar corporation to his problem. The corporation points to the statute and then sits on its hands. I am proposing that the law should be this: X posts some information about Y that Y alleges to be untrue. If it can be shown that the information is false (I address this problem below), then the ISP has a *duty* (yes, duty) to remove the posting in a reasonable amount of time. Otherwise, the ISP is deemed to be acquiescing in the posting and can be held liable for the consequences. Laina wrote: >Great discussion. Thanks for initiating it. I tend to agree with Jim as he rightly points out the >difficulty of knowing if the reporting party is legitimate and the complaint true. To expect the >ISP to take down the material, would be to expect them to act judge of the situation. If they >do, and it is subsequently found to be an unfounded complaint, they could get sued by the >innocent party for having taken sides and caused them financial harm, etc. >I think it has to be courts or other relevant regulatory authority that has to make these types of >judgments, before an ISP can be expected to take down the offending material. Jim and Laina, you folks have a point about how to resolve the impasse if two persons are contesting the posting. I think that the courts can handle it. In other words, the offended party can take out an injunction, whatever, and get the ISP to remove the posting. Letting the court handle it has the advantage of filtering out minor disputes as courts cost money. In other words, the ISP does not have to make the decision. All the ISP does is to abide by legally enforceable court actions. I do not see why this should impose any additional burden on an ISP. As part of the media law course I teach, I sometimes get students to do an exercise using Rawl's veil of ignorance: draft a law/code of ethics that would apply whether you are the reader or the publisher. I think that if they were to apply this approach, I do not think the outcome would be so one-sided in favour of AOL. Regards, Ang Peng Hwa ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Nov 18 13:23:12 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id NAA03016 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:23:12 +0900 (JST) Received: from pathfinder.com ([204.71.242.18] (may be forged)) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id NAA03010 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:23:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from [204.254.22.181] ([204.254.22.110]) by pathfinder.com (*private*/SMI-SVR4) with ESMTP id XAA23360 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:24:53 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: relay.pathfinder.com: Host [204.254.22.110] claimed to be [204.254.22.181] X-Sender: declan@mail.pathfinder.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971116150924.00ab4070@gizmo.dimension.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:40:57 -0500 To: apple@apnic.net From: Declan McCullagh Subject: Re: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk I have a tremendous amount of respect for Barbara, but I do want to set the record straight. The online services cut a deal on ISP liability and "harmful to minors" (over indecency). They endorsed the version of the CDA with both in it as a reasonable compromise. Reference this letter signed by CIX, AOL, Compuserve, et al. lauding the "harmful to minors" CDA (with the all-important online service liability in it): http://www.cdt.org/policy/freespeech/1109_iwg_ltr.html >"We believe it is possible to craft a criminal statute that punishes >those who provide truly harmful material to children in a manner >that both targets the serious offenses about which some conservative >family groups are most concerned, and that also will withstand >constitutional scrutiny. In particular, rather than relying on the >vague and constitutionally suspect "indecency" standard, Congress >should instead consider the "harmful to minors" standard within the >framework of Title 18 of the United Sates Code. This standard is >used in numerous state statutes and has been found constitutional >by the United States Supreme Court." Now as a general rule industry will cut deals that harm civil liberties. They did it earlier this year in putting in crypto-criminalization language in SAFE so they could make more money on exports. Note civil liberties groups like ACLU EPIC et al wrote a counter "no compromise" letter on SAFE this year and on "harmful to minors" two years ago. Dealcutting is a natural part of the political process. But we should recognize it when it happens. For the record, I think it is very unwise to hold online services liable for what their users talk about online. -Declan At 15:09 -0500 11/16/97, Barbara Dooley wrote: >I agree with Declan about many things, but disagree about his >interpretation of the history of the CDA time. The political reality was >that the CDA was going to pass. CIX worked very hard to get the carve out >language to protect ISPs/OSPs. And we--as well as AOL--were part of the >CIEC coalition that supported the Supreme Court challenge of the CDA. >The "content regulation" issue is going to be an on-going dialogue between >regulators, governments, users and service providers,for a long time to >come in the US and around the world. (Coats is only one example we'll face >in 1998). Because it is difficult to identify individuals on the Internet, >the tendency is to want the service providers to monitor user conduct >and--even worse--carry liability for it. > >Barbara A. Dooley >Executive Director >Commercial Internet eXchange Association > > > >At 08:26 AM 11/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Two points: >> >>1. The provisions weren't "upheld" as much as never challenged. >> >>2. Of course there was "something good about the CDA," if you're an online >>service. The immunizing portion of the CDA was put in there as a political >>buyoff so AOL Prodigy etc. wouldn't oppose the CDA. >> >>-Declan >> > >___________________________________________________________________________ >| To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | >| Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Nov 18 14:32:45 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id OAA03685 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:32:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from copper.singnet.com.sg (copper.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA03679 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:32:40 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from isjfvzjl (ts900-3201.singnet.com.sg [165.21.151.85]) by copper.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27094; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:35:28 +0800 (SGT) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 13:36:14 Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld To: "'Halpert, James - DC'" , "'APPLe'" , Ang Peng Hwa X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk It seems we are in agreement then. That was the point, AOL is in the ISP or you add content business, not in the business of interpreting the law. Laina RG --- On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:50:10 +0800 Ang Peng Hwa Jim and Laina, you folks have a point about how to resolve the impasse if two persons are contesting the posting. I think that the courts can handle it. In other words, the offended party can take out an injunction, whatever, and get the ISP to remove the posting. Letting the court handle it has the advantage of filtering out minor disputes as courts cost money. In other words, the ISP does not have to make the decision. All the ISP does is to abide by legally enforceable court actions. I do not see why this should impose any additional burden on an ISP. ------------------------------------- Name: Laina Raveendran Greene E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg Date: 11/18/97 Time: 1:36:14 PM This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Nov 18 16:17:36 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id QAA04444 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:17:36 +0900 (JST) Received: from farley.cisco.com (farley.cisco.com [204.179.2.54]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id QAA04438 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:17:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from kiwi.cisco.com (kiwi [199.35.98.98]) by farley.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id XAA15344 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:19:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com ([171.68.85.150]) by kiwi.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/CISCO.WS.1.2) with SMTP id XAA23036 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:17:18 +0800 Message-ID: <01BCF435.0F0D38A0.bgreene@cisco.com> From: Barry Raveendran Greene Reply-To: "bgreene@cisco.com" To: "'APPLe'" Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:18:25 +0800 Organization: Cisco Systems - Corporate Consulting Group X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk From: cinet-editor@cnd.org +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ C I N E T - L N e w s l e t t e r +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Issue No. 86 (CN97-010), November 17, 1997 [SNIP] ____ ____ ____ (8) Computer Networks Face Ever Increasing Number of Hackers [CND, 11/12/97] Government has taken new measures to counter domestic and foreign hackers on the Internet, AFP reported quoting the official China Daily. In a move to "protect computer owners and companies," the new Criminal Law, which took effect last month, allows charges to be brought against computer hackers. "Hackers activities have increased within China," China Daily said, adding that several computer invasions had been reported by ChinaNet, the biggest commercial Internet Service Provider (IPS) in the country. A July 21 "attack" on nodes in Shanghai and Harbin disrupted service and forced one system to shut down for eight hours. The front World Wide Web page of the China Network Information Center (CNIC) was changed to an image of a laughing skull by a hacker, China Daily said. Experts with CNIC said most invasions came from outside China. "Foreign hackers think the technology in China's network may not be able to detect and fight hacking." According to the paper, following the Texas hacker's move, CNIC technicians recovered the web page, traced the system's bugs and set a trap. The hacker took the bait and was identified and warned by E-mail. (Ray ZHANG, Guochen WAN) ____ ____ ____ [SNIP] ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Nov 18 17:46:38 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id RAA05096 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:46:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from farley.cisco.com (farley.cisco.com [204.179.2.54]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA05091 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:46:33 +0900 (JST) Received: from kiwi.cisco.com (kiwi [199.35.98.98]) by farley.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id AAA23239; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:48:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com ([171.68.85.152]) by kiwi.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/CISCO.WS.1.2) with SMTP id AAA26818; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:48:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:46:19 +0800 Message-ID: <01BCF441.7ECDCF40.bgreene@cisco.com> From: Barry Raveendran Greene Reply-To: "bgreene@cisco.com" To: "'Ang Peng Hwa'" , "'Halpert, James - DC'" , "'APPLe'" Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:35:39 +0800 Organization: Cisco Systems - Corporate Consulting Group X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hello Peng Hwa, On Tuesday, November 18, 1997 10:50 AM, Ang Peng Hwa [SMTP:TPHANG@ntu.edu.sg] wrote: > I am proposing that the law should be this: X posts some information > about Y that Y alleges to be untrue. If it can be shown that the > information is false (I address this problem below), then the ISP has a > *duty* (yes, duty) to remove the posting in a reasonable amount of time. > Otherwise, the ISP is deemed to be acquiescing in the posting and can be > held liable for the consequences. An ISP has less control than you think. Lets take USENET News. Once something gets posted, a message gets distributed all over the world AND archived in all sorts of indexing/search tools. Try doing a key work search on "Barry Raveendran Greene." You will see post from me that go back to 1989! So, how can the ISP be held liable for imformation pushed to all corners of the Internet? Barry ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Nov 18 19:09:16 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id TAA05619 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:09:16 +0900 (JST) Received: from farley.cisco.com (farley.cisco.com [204.179.2.54]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA05612 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:09:11 +0900 (JST) Received: from kiwi.cisco.com (kiwi [199.35.98.98]) by farley.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id CAA00109 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 02:11:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com ([171.68.85.152]) by kiwi.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/CISCO.WS.1.2) with SMTP id CAA00444 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 02:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:08:54 +0800 Message-ID: <01BCF44D.08461100.bgreene@cisco.com> From: Barry Raveendran Greene Reply-To: "bgreene@cisco.com" To: "'APPLe'" Cc: "'Gordon Cook'" Subject: FW: evaluation of the IWG on DNS Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:06:58 +0800 Organization: Cisco Systems - Corporate Consulting Group X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk FYI [I'm not sure if Gordon is one APPLe, so I've CCed him.] Barry -----Original Message----- From: cook@netaxs.com Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 1997 12:51 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: evaluation of the IWG on DNS I normally don't post any material from my newsletter to NANOG, but I have just had a strong "nudge" from a list member regarding the December issue that I published tonight. Here is the portion of my Exec. Summary from a LONG article on Internet Governace issues. The Governance Wars Continue, pp. 13 - 22 Motivated by an abiding hatred of Network Solutions' "monopoly" the federal Interagency Working Group on DNS (IWG) ironically adopted, at the end of the summer, an attitude that since the ISOC CORE effect in Geneva was the only other game in town, it should have the US government embrace the very folk that the IWG had been set up in fear of. We have been told that the idea of assistance in the creation of the database software needed by CORE has been tried out in negotiations for changes that would make the CORE Swiss cartel more 'democratic'. Having been warned that Brian Kahin was holding behind the scenes discussions with IBM, AT&T and Oracle on the question of the data base software and that Becky Burr, Kahin's partner at NTIA, was testing the waters for the idea that a competition for software design be held, we submitted a FOIA to OSTP on October 7 seeking all relevant data to the IBM, Oracle and AT&T discussions. On the 27th were were told that more time would be need because of the "substantial interest in the determination of our request." When on Friday November 14 no documents had been delivered, we complained and were told that the reason was because they involved coordination with the FCC since they mentioned Mike Nelson, an ex OSTP employee. However by the afternoon the story changed to merely that there were too many and they were waiting to send them all. During the week that began on November 10th, the working group was making its own leaks that it would have its findings released - first by the 14 and then by the 17th. We complained in a public appeal to Ira Magaziner on the 12 and on the 13th received a phone call in which he assured us for attribution that no policy would be made for a number of weeks yet and perhaps even for several months. On the basis of our conversation we believe that 1. he is the 'boss' of the IWG and will prevent Burr and Kahin from doing an end run around him in their desire to kill the NSI monopoly. 2. That he has a sincere and humble recognition that he simply doesnUt understand the matter well enough yet to reach the right decision. We are encouraged to hear that he will be doing heavy duty fact finding of his own. Coming to understand much better the reasons for Tony RutkowskiUs dislike of the ITU, after the Secretary General admitted that he would like to have the ITU take over Internet governance, we believe that it is critical for Magaziner to understand that the Internet's creative vitality comes from Einar Stefferud calls its self-organizing 'bounded chaos'. Just as no one entity can control the global economy so no single entity can control the Internet. Stef has a profound understanding of these issues and the final third of our article is a compendium of his recent writings on the subject plus a concluding section that he wrote on November 15 in response to our findings about the working group activities. Here he states that Mr. Magziner must realize that there is no crisis; and that no new top level domains should be added to the root servers until all parties have joined into a confederation using IETF processes to develop their own governance plan. He concludes by pointing out that the ultimate recourse lies in the power of thousands of DNS administrators world wide to point to the root machines that offer the best service to the network. ************************************************************************ The COOK Report on Internet For subsc. pricing & more than 431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 USA ten megabytes of free material (609) 882-2572 (phone & fax) visit http://cookreport.com/ Internet: cook@cookreport.com New Special Report: Internet Governance at the Crossroads ($175) http://cookreport.com/inetgov.shtml ************************************************************************ ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Nov 18 19:20:16 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id TAA05672 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:20:16 +0900 (JST) Received: from farley.cisco.com (farley.cisco.com [204.179.2.54]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA05667 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:20:12 +0900 (JST) Received: from kiwi.cisco.com (kiwi [199.35.98.98]) by farley.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id CAA01017 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 02:22:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com ([171.68.85.152]) by kiwi.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/CISCO.WS.1.2) with SMTP id CAA00816 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 02:22:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:19:56 +0800 Message-ID: <01BCF44E.92612E00.bgreene@cisco.com> From: Barry Raveendran Greene Reply-To: "bgreene@cisco.com" To: "'APPLe'" Subject: FW: evaluation of the IWG on DNS Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:15:13 +0800 Organization: Cisco Systems - Corporate Consulting Group X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk FYI, To save some of Dave's typing time. Barry -----Original Message----- From: Dave Crocker [SMTP:dcrocker@brandenburg.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 1997 3:15 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: evaluation of the IWG on DNS Unfortunately, Gordon seems intent on spreading his views on this topic to one an all venues, no matter the difficulties with his assessment. To whit: At 11:50 PM 11/17/97 -0500, Gordon Cook wrote: >end of the summer, an attitude that since the ISOC CORE effect in Geneva One problem is this lovely focus on Geneva, ignoring the rather considerable oversight functions and constraints provided by the POC which is not based anywhere and has global participation, with even more broad review by the supporting signatories to the gTLD MoU. Rather, it is more convenient to paint CORE as part of ISOC which, of course, it is not. Even more interesting is the view that Swiss law is somehow an essential problem with the gTLD MoU structure. >We have been told that the idea of assistance in the creation of the >database software needed by CORE has been tried out in negotiations for >changes that would make the CORE Swiss cartel more 'democratic'. Having An idea has been tried out? What does this mean? For all this focus on US government folks, the problem here is that the work being done by CORE is being done by CORE and Emergent, with the relevant required assistance from the Policy Oversight Committee, and by no one else. Others may hold whatever discussions they want but it's difficult to understand why they are important. And about the inflammatory, but incorrect, term cartel. One tires of its continued use as an effort to wave red flags at everybody. My dictionary says a cartel controls production, pricing, and marketing. One could argue that the gTLD MoU does control production, in the sense of regulating the creation of one class of new TLDs, but it does not control pricing or marketing. Criticisms about the control of available gTLDs ignore legitimate questions about DNS scaling. >believe that 1. he is the 'boss' of the IWG and will prevent Burr and >Kahin from doing an end run around him in their desire to kill the NSI This I like a lot. The idea that they would do an end run around Magaziner. You'd have to have met these folks to realize how humorous that idea is. For starters, Magaziner explicitly directed Burr to to be the point of contact on this topic. >of the ITU, after the Secretary General admitted that he would like to >have the ITU take over Internet governance, we believe that it is critical The SG admitted no such thing. He used a phrase along the lines of "greater role in the Internet". It takes a special degree of paranoia to translate that into "take over Internet governance". But what the heck, the latter makes more exciting copy. >control the Internet. Stef has a profound understanding of these issues ... >states that Mr. Magziner must realize that there is no crisis; and that no It's always interesting to see those who are uninvolved in operations make such firm assessments about operational requirements. This makes it so much easier to ignore the 3 1/2 year history to this topic and the fact that the DNS operations community considered this a crisis ONE YEAR AGO. >new top level domains should be added to the root servers until all I'm sure that governments and organizations outside of the US will be interested in seeing the United States government take such proprietary (or paternalistic) actions towards an activity which is attempting to facilitate entrepreneurial efforts for new registrars and provide substantially better competitive benefits for consumers. >parties have joined into a confederation using IETF processes to develop >their own governance plan. He concludes by pointing out that the ultimate That's exactly what the gTLD MoU represents. It was designed quite carefully to reflect IETF-like processes. But where the IETF process fails, as do all others, is with those who are constantly declaring that a topic needs further study. I guess 3 1/2 years is not enough. d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker +1 408 246 8253 Brandenburg Consulting fax: +1 408 249 6205 675 Spruce Dr. dcrocker@brandenburg.com Sunnyvale, CA 94086 USA http://www.brandenburg.com Internet Mail Consortium info@imc.org, http://www.imc.org ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Nov 18 20:31:37 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id UAA05997 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:31:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from zinc.singnet.com.sg (zinc.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.31]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id UAA05992 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:31:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from jhmk (ts900-5714.singnet.com.sg [165.21.161.130]) by zinc.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28895; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:34:20 +0800 (SGT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971118193631.0079cbb0@singnet.com.sg> X-Sender: camelot@singnet.com.sg X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:36:31 +0800 To: laina@singnet.com.sg, "'APPLe'" , Ang Peng Hwa , "Halpert, James - DC" From: Rajesh Sreenivasan Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk At 09:11 AM 11/18/97, Laina wrote: >I think it has to be courts or other relevant regulatory authority that >has to make these types of judgments, before an ISP can be expected to >take down the offending material. A couple of quick points (well they kinda grew a little):- (1) UK Model - Defamation Act (after 1996 amendments) Insofar as defamation actions are concerned, ISP's liabilities are spelt in a much better drafted UK Defamation Act (unlike Section 230 of the CDA). In particular, Section 1 whereby ISP's can absolve themselves of liability if they can prove the following:- (a) they are not the author, editor or publisher of the statement complained of, (b) they took reasonable care in relation to its publication, and (c) they did not know, and had no reason to believe, that what they did caused or contributed to the publication of a defamatory statement. Note Section 1(3)(c) in particular 1. ... (3) A person shall not be considered the author, editor or publisher of a statement if he is only involved- ... (c) in processing, making copies of, distributing or selling any electronic medium in or on which the statement is recorded, or in operating or providing any equipment, system or service by means of which the statement is retrieved, copied, distributed or made available in electronic form; (long overdue changes that ought to be adopted in Singapore's legislation too...yawn!!) See it in full at:- http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/96031--a.htm#1 Diferent words, different structure, same effect (as Section 230). Agreed? Well, this statute has yet to be judicially defined/tested and frankly, I can't wait for a test case in this matter. Hopefully, that would convince our authorities to re-look at our Defamation Act ... Won't that solve the problem Peng Hua, at least with regard to defamatory material? (2) Singapore Model - SBA Industry Guidelines As for other "prohibited material" (yucks!), and still on the subject of ISP's duty to remove material, it's worth noting the Industry Guidelines issued by the Singapore Broadcasting Authority (SBA) at:- http://www.sba.gov.sg/netreg/idnote.htm#content . This sets out the obligations of the ISP's with regard to the removal of "prohibited material" as defined in the Internet Code of Practice (ICP) available at http://www.sba.gov.sg/netreg/code.htm . Note the definition of "prohibited material". The definition covers material that is Essentially, insofar as material deemed prohibited by the ICP is concerned, ISP's are NOT required to remove/block the same on their own volition and are NOT required to scrounge the web looking for and blocking access to or removing such material from their servers. They will fulfill their obligations under the SBA Act so long as they remove all material as instructed by the SBA. Sorry, the SBA Act is not accesible wholly on the web due to our archaic copyright stance on supposedly "public" statutes. Using this as a starting point, it would logically follow that anyone who has any grouses over a particular page that falls within the ambit of "prohibited material" could first raise this with SBA and UPON SBA's instruction, such pages would be removed by the ISP; hence ISP's are rightly absolved from the decision making responsibility in this regard. Of course this does not at all address the situation where the material concerned is defamatory in nature. Such inherently subjective decisions cannot and should not be made by the ISP's themselves; even we legally trained ones find it hard enough at times; well I certainly do esp. in my cases that involve material published on the net. Although there have been instances, where allegedly defamatory material has been removed from the newsserver of a local ISP (note this only removes access to the news article for subscribers to that particular ISP(s) and the post will still be available on the rest of USENET) upon the application by the aggrieved party in Singapore on a case by case basis, there is no hard and fast rule/law which obliges local ISP's to do so. Frankly IMHO, such a rule would be ridiculously onerous on the ISP if ISP's themselves have to decide if the material is defamatory. A court injuction by the aggrieved party is the first thought that runs through my mind as a solution. Is it workable? I certainly think so and the courts will then rightly decide the issue. This coupled with the necessary changes to the Defamation Act as per the UK Model above would solve most of the current problems for ISP's in this area. That was fun, gotta get back to work ..... ;-). P.S. for a very brief academic (student's) but fairly recent look at the area check out this "research paper". I do not concur with the author's brief analysis of the issues, but he does summarise the facts well:- http://student.uq.edu.au/~s320417/ Regards Rajesh Sreenivasan http://www.singnet.com.sg/~camelot ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Tue Nov 18 23:55:03 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id XAA06749 for apple-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:55:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from gatekeeper.pipermar.com (firewall-user@gatekeeper.pipermar.com [206.181.226.34]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA06743 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:54:56 +0900 (JST) Received: by gatekeeper.pipermar.com; id JAA06062; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:55:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199711181455.JAA06062@gatekeeper.pipermar.com> Received: from unknown(192.168.100.12) by gatekeeper.pipermar.com via smap (3.2) id xma006046; Tue, 18 Nov 97 09:55:03 -0500 Received: by BALTMSG1 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:57:46 -0500 From: "Halpert, James - DC" To: "'APPLe'" , Barry Raveendran Greene , "'Ang Peng Hwa'" Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:55:00 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Barry, >An ISP has less control than you think. Lets take USENET News. Once something >gets posted, a message gets distributed all over the world AND archived in >all sorts of indexing/search tools. Try doing a key work search on "Barry >Raveendran Greene." You will see post from me that go back to 1989! Good point. In addition, as I understand it, even if an ISP removes material from its news servers, the same material may cycle back and return to the ISP's server space. USENET poses unique problems for take downs. -- Jim ---------- From: Barry Raveendran Greene To: 'Ang Peng Hwa'; 'Halpert, James - DC'; 'APPLe' Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Date: Tuesday, November 18, 1997 3:35AM Hello Peng Hwa, On Tuesday, November 18, 1997 10:50 AM, Ang Peng Hwa [SMTP:TPHANG@ntu.edu.sg] wrote: > I am proposing that the law should be this: X posts some information > about Y that Y alleges to be untrue. If it can be shown that the > information is false (I address this problem below), then the ISP has a > *duty* (yes, duty) to remove the posting in a reasonable amount of time. > Otherwise, the ISP is deemed to be acquiescing in the posting and can be > held liable for the consequences. So, how can the ISP be held liable for imformation pushed to all corners of the Internet? Barry ________________________________________________________________________ ___ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Wed Nov 19 09:16:18 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id JAA08477 for apple-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:16:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from farley.cisco.com (farley.cisco.com [204.179.2.54]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id JAA08472 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:16:13 +0900 (JST) Received: from kiwi.cisco.com (kiwi [199.35.98.98]) by farley.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA17696; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:18:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com ([171.68.85.150]) by kiwi.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/CISCO.WS.1.2) with SMTP id QAA09024; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:18:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:15:53 +0800 Message-ID: <01BCF4C3.5A650060.bgreene@cisco.com> From: Barry Raveendran Greene Reply-To: "bgreene@cisco.com" To: "'Rajesh Sreenivasan'" , "laina@singnet.com.sg" , "'APPLe'" , Ang Peng Hwa , "Halpert, James - DC" Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:06:12 +0800 Organization: Cisco Systems - Corporate Consulting Group X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hello Rahesh, Thanks for the summary - though as a non-legal person it's over my head. On Tuesday, November 18, 1997 7:37 PM, Rajesh Sreenivasan [SMTP:camelot@singnet.com.sg] wrote: [SNIP] > (2) Singapore Model - SBA Industry Guidelines [SNIP] > Essentially, insofar as material deemed prohibited by the ICP is concerned, > ISP's are NOT required to remove/block the same on their own volition and > are NOT required to scrounge the web looking for and blocking access to or > removing such material from their servers. They will fulfill their > obligations under the SBA Act so long as they remove all material as > instructed by the SBA. Sorry, the SBA Act is not accessible wholly on the > web due to our archaic copyright stance on supposedly "public" statutes. One thing to keep in mind is that the SBA Act was not really something where a bunch of law makers or lawyers created and threw out on the Internet. SBA and the Internet industry (the three ISPs, National Computer Board, National University of Singapore) worked very hard to work out a strategy of what can realistically be done considering Internet technology and the existing law/principle of Singapore society. So, SBA does not really "ask" (through the law and guidelines say that). If something come up - like an offending page - SBA knows a lot of what is and is not technologically possible. If there is doubt, SBA gets together with the three ISPs and works together to find a solution that satisfies the requirements of the law while at the same time not blowing the ISP's business case away with a "cat and mouse" chase to find the "perfect" solution. Balance is the key. >From my personal observations, balance and educational empowerment are the themes of SBA implementation of the content regulations. In the early days SBA would call Lim Hock Koon (Pacific Internet) and I about how they should get educated. We each gave them a list of key Internet meeting/conferences. Guess what? SBA was at all of them! This gave them a edge when working out the details of the content regulation. They empowered themselves vs having someone "teach" them what is happening. Something other regulators should take note. Barry ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Wed Nov 19 13:47:06 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id NAA10159 for apple-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:47:06 +0900 (JST) Received: from exchange1.ntu.ac.sg (exchange1.ntu.edu.sg [155.69.1.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id NAA10153 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:47:00 +0900 (JST) Received: by exchange1.ntu.edu.sg with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:46:35 +0800 Message-ID: From: Ang Peng Hwa To: "'Halpert, James - DC'" , "'APPLe'" , Barry Raveendran Greene Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:40:59 +0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Folks, You are right and you are, well, not so right. The right part: all that you say is true. But that does not appear to be the facts of the case. I am trying to confine the facts to the case because if you agree with the outcome based on the facts, then the outcome based on the facts you folks, Jim and Barry, describe will hold too. Here are the facts as I see it. 1. It is not just an ISP. The material is actually resident in the server and only that server. 2. The ISP knows that it is there 'cos Zeran has told them. Zeran even shows them his head wound from the roof falling down on him. 3. The ISP sits on its hands. 4. Question: should the ISP get away without being liable whatsoever? A closer analogy would be this: you (or me, so that you know I am not targetting/flaming you) have been headhunted for a job. It's in the IT line 'cos you (me) have built up such a good name that we no longer need to type CVs. The CEO does a search using DejaVu. The CEO pulls up some posts about you (me) that unbeknowst to you (me) was there and was posted by an enemy. (It's ok. Even Jesus had enemies.) You (me) lose the job. Now the CEO begins to pass the word around about you (me) based on the DejaNews search. And he tells people, "Look, I cannot really tell you about this guy 'cos if I do that I could be sued for defamation. But if you do a search under his name, you will know what I am talking about. And he always looked so respectable." And so, your circle of friends becomes smaller than Saddam Hussein's. You tell DejaNews your sad situation. You even go to court to prove that the #$%^ who put the "information" about you was sued out of his socks. DejaNews points to CDA and says, "Sorry pal. I have no time to do anything but sit on my hands." That is the situation that Kenneth Zeran was/is in. I do not see why the CDA should protect DejaNews in such a situation that you (me) are in. Regards, Peng Hwa -----Original Message----- From: Halpert, James - DC [SMTP:JJH@pipermar.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 1997 10:55 PM To: 'APPLe'; Barry Raveendran Greene; 'Ang Peng Hwa' Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Barry, >An ISP has less control than you think. Lets take USENET News. Once something >gets posted, a message gets distributed all over the world AND archived in >all sorts of indexing/search tools. Try doing a key work search on "Barry >Raveendran Greene." You will see post from me that go back to 1989! Good point. In addition, as I understand it, even if an ISP removes material from its news servers, the same material may cycle back and return to the ISP's server space. USENET poses unique problems for take downs. -- Jim ---------- From: Barry Raveendran Greene To: 'Ang Peng Hwa'; 'Halpert, James - DC'; 'APPLe' Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Date: Tuesday, November 18, 1997 3:35AM Hello Peng Hwa, On Tuesday, November 18, 1997 10:50 AM, Ang Peng Hwa [SMTP:TPHANG@ntu.edu.sg] wrote: > I am proposing that the law should be this: X posts some information > about Y that Y alleges to be untrue. If it can be shown that the > information is false (I address this problem below), then the ISP has a > *duty* (yes, duty) to remove the posting in a reasonable amount of time. > Otherwise, the ISP is deemed to be acquiescing in the posting and can be > held liable for the consequences. So, how can the ISP be held liable for imformation pushed to all corners of the Internet? Barry ________________________________________________________________________ ___ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- ________________________________________________________________________ ___ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Wed Nov 19 14:33:15 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id OAA10480 for apple-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:33:15 +0900 (JST) Received: from iron.singnet.com.sg (iron.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.29]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA10475 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:33:10 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from isjfvzjl ([165.21.165.125]) by iron.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17386; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:35:54 +0800 (SGT) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 13:35:10 Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld To: "'Halpert, James - DC'" , "'APPLe'" , Barry Raveendran Greene , Ang Peng Hwa X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Well Peng Hwa, take head. You seem to have a very good case against the offenders. If you can get a court decision or SBA order, the ISP should then take it down, If they don;t, then you have a case against them too. To expect the ISP to judge if it was defamatory is not the track. Sure it sounds bad, but how are they to know it is defamatory or true, if they act as judge of the matter, they may open themslves to additional liability to the innocent party (if the stories turn out to be true). Laina RG --- On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:40:59 +0800 Ang Peng Hwa wrote: Folks, You are right and you are, well, not so right. The right part: all that you say is true. But that does not appear to be the facts of the case. I am trying to confine the facts to the case because if you agree with the outcome based on the facts, then the outcome based on the facts you folks, Jim and Barry, describe will hold too. Here are the facts as I see it. 1. It is not just an ISP. The material is actually resident in the server and only that server. 2. The ISP knows that it is there 'cos Zeran has told them. Zeran even shows them his head wound from the roof falling down on him. 3. The ISP sits on its hands. 4. Question: should the ISP get away without being liable whatsoever? A closer analogy would be this: you (or me, so that you know I am not targetting/flaming you) have been headhunted for a job. It's in the IT line 'cos you (me) have built up such a good name that we no longer need to type CVs. The CEO does a search using DejaVu. The CEO pulls up some posts about you (me) that unbeknowst to you (me) was there and was posted by an enemy. (It's ok. Even Jesus had enemies.) You (me) lose the job. Now the CEO begins to pass the word around about you (me) based on the DejaNews search. And he tells people, "Look, I cannot really tell you about this guy 'cos if I do that I could be sued for defamation. But if you do a search under his name, you will know what I am talking about. And he always looked so respectable." And so, your circle of friends becomes smaller than Saddam Hussein's. You tell DejaNews your sad situation. You even go to court to prove that the #$%^ who put the "information" about you was sued out of his socks. DejaNews points to CDA and says, "Sorry pal. I have no time to do anything but sit on my hands." That is the situation that Kenneth Zeran was/is in. I do not see why the CDA should protect DejaNews in such a situation that you (me) are in. Regards, Peng Hwa -----Original Message----- From: Halpert, James - DC [SMTP:JJH@pipermar.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 1997 10:55 PM To: 'APPLe'; Barry Raveendran Greene; 'Ang Peng Hwa' Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Barry, >An ISP has less control than you think. Lets take USENET News. Once something >gets posted, a message gets distributed all over the world AND archived in >all sorts of indexing/search tools. Try doing a key work search on "Barry >Raveendran Greene." You will see post from me that go back to 1989! Good point. In addition, as I understand it, even if an ISP removes material from its news servers, the same material may cycle back and return to the ISP's server space. USENET poses unique problems for take downs. -- Jim ---------- From: Barry Raveendran Greene To: 'Ang Peng Hwa'; 'Halpert, James - DC'; 'APPLe' Subject: RE: CDA's ISP Protections Upheld Date: Tuesday, November 18, 1997 3:35AM Hello Peng Hwa, On Tuesday, November 18, 1997 10:50 AM, Ang Peng Hwa [SMTP:TPHANG@ntu.edu.sg] wrote: > I am proposing that the law should be this: X posts some information > about Y that Y alleges to be untrue. If it can be shown that the > information is false (I address this problem below), then the ISP has a > *duty* (yes, duty) to remove the posting in a reasonable amount of time. > Otherwise, the ISP is deemed to be acquiescing in the posting and can be > held liable for the consequences. So, how can the ISP be held liable for imformation pushed to all corners of the Internet? Barry ________________________________________________________________________ ___ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- ________________________________________________________________________ ___ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------------------- Name: Laina Raveendran Greene E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg Date: 11/19/97 Time: 1:35:10 PM This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Wed Nov 19 15:59:26 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id PAA11256 for apple-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:59:26 +0900 (JST) Received: from armstrong.apic.net (armstrong.apic.net [203.22.101.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA11251 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:59:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from boss.apic.net (boss.apic.net [203.22.102.40]) by armstrong.apic.net (8.8.6/APIC-2.1) with SMTP id SAA28727; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:02:37 +1100 (EST) X-Org: The Asia Pacific Internet Company Pty. Ltd. X-URL: http://www.apic.net/ Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971119175704.00a4edd0@mail.apic.net> X-Sender: bala@mail.apic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:57:04 +1100 To: apple@apnic.net, SEASIA-L@MSU.EDU From: Bala Pillai Subject: MY: Panel to screen foreign (Internet) reports (fw) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk **forwarded message** Wednesday, November 19, 1997 Star Malaysia Source: http://www.thestar.com.my/current/19m1sc.html Panel to screen foreign reports MALACCA: A committee has been set up to screen all foreign reports about the country which are carried via the Internet, Culture, Arts and Tourism Ministry deputy secretary-general Datuk Tengku Alaudin Tengku Abdul Majid said yesterday. "The committee will browse through the Internet and read the articles on the country," he said. Tengku Alaudin said negative articles will be extracted and discussed on a regular basis. "We will decide on the appropriate action to correct any wrong perceptions in the reports," he told reporters after attending the 13th meeting of the Asean working group on Literary and Asean studies here. Tengku Alaudin said the committee will submit weekly reports to the Prime Minister's Department. He said that Culture, Arts and Tourism Minister Datuk Sabbaruddin Chik and other senior officials were in London to counter negative reports about Malaysia at the World Travel Mart. Tengku Alaudin said local media should also refrian from writing any negative reports to prevent the foreign media from picking them up and tarnishing the country's image. --------------------------------------------------------------------- bala pillai bala@apic.net * For quick info on AIM send blank founder * asian internet marketing (aim) cybercommunity ph: +61 2 9419 5333 fax: +61 2 9419 5155 where pan-asian internet marketing, media and sales pioneers mingle. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Nov 20 01:12:08 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id BAA14016 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:12:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from scils.rutgers.edu (scils.rutgers.edu [128.6.160.78]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with SMTP id BAA14008 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:11:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from mmueller.rutgers.edu (calloway-b-asy-6.rutgers.edu [165.230.80.90]) by scils.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA01063 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:11:49 -0500 Message-ID: <347310E6.5DC6@scils.rutgers.edu> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:16:39 -0500 From: Milton Mueller Reply-To: milton@scils.rutgers.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apple@apnic.net Subject: Re: FW: evaluation of the IWG on DNS References: <01BCF44E.92612E00.bgreene@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Dave, et al: I will grant you that Gordon Cook's lively newsletter often contains equal measures of rumour and fact. On one essential point, however, I think Crocker's response is off target. The gTLD MoU is a "cartel". The term is neither inflammatory nor unfair; it is a matter of economic science. A cartel is defined as "a formal agreement between firms in an oligopolistic market to cooperate with regard to agreed procedures on such variables as price and ouput. The result is diminished competition and cooperation over objectives as, for example, joint profit maximization or avoidance of new entry." (MIT dictionary of economics) The gTLD MoU is a formal agreement to control the supply of top-level domain names. The agreement explicitly fixes the number of gTLDs (7) in the same way as, and for much the same purposes as, OPEC controlled the production of oil by its member states. As a matter of practice, controlling supply has the same effect as controlling price, so there is no need for it to formally set prices. Nothing in the definition of a cartel requires joint marketing, contrary to Dave's assertion. The purpose in this case is not so much profit maximization (although ISOC's and ITU's desire to institutionalize their roles in Internet governance might be looked at in that way), but it is an attempt to restrict new entry. > > Criticisms about the control of available gTLDs ignore legitimate questions > about DNS scaling. > Dave, we've been down this route before. One fact that emerged clearly from the US Dept of Commerce comments and testimony is that DNS is highly scalable. There may be transitional operational issues in terms of how quickly they are introduced, but the submissions of NSI, and even Postel, made it clear that there is no reason why there can't be as many TLDs as there are SLDs. ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Nov 20 04:17:59 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id EAA14518 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 04:17:59 +0900 (JST) Received: from proper.com (proper.com [165.227.249.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id EAA14513 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 04:17:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from omni.imc.org (d129.netgate.net [205.214.160.168]) by proper.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA12491; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:17:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711191917.LAA12491@proper.com> X-Sender: dhcmail@imc.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro 4.0 Beta 7 (build 224) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:19:44 -0800 To: milton@scils.rutgers.edu From: Dave Crocker / IMC Subject: Re: FW: evaluation of the IWG on DNS Cc: apple@apnic.net In-Reply-To: <347310E6.5DC6@scils.rutgers.edu> References: <01BCF44E.92612E00.bgreene@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk At 11:16 AM 11/19/97 -0500, Milton Mueller wrote: >The gTLD MoU is a "cartel". The term is neither inflammatory >nor unfair; it is a matter of economic science. A cartel is defined >as "a formal agreement between firms in an oligopolistic market to >cooperate with regard to agreed procedures on such variables as >price and ouput. The result is diminished competition and cooperation First, within the use of English, I claim the term very much IS inflammatory and that that is the reason it is being used in this context. However, the point is subjective and therefore cannot be resolved by debate. Second, the exact definition of the term seems to depend upon the book one reads. For my previous note, I used an American Heritage Dictionary entry. Since this discussion is among a broad range of people, and not economists, such a source seems pretty reasonable. In any event it doesn't seem to have been all that different from your own, so let's go with yours: The operational resources are controlled by CORE. CORE has some important characteristics which tend to be ignored: 1. It is subject to controls by the Policy Oversight Committee, as instantiated by the CORE MoU. POC can change the CORE MoU; CORE cannot. Hence, all of the public participation involved in the POC activity are relevant to the policy behavior of CORE 2. CORE consists of all the registrars and the process of getting registrars was entirely open. The primary requirements were for a minimum demonstration of fiscal ability. Although there are no details about the timing, more applications will be accepted in the future. Overall, this makes CORE an extremely open group. I'd say that these two facts combine to make the usual assumptions about cartel behavior seriously off the mark. And by the way, CORE sets the "wholesale" price for a gTLD name, not the retail price. If the wholesale price turns out to be high, then yes, that is a problem. If the price is low, it isn't a problem. It will be interesting to see what it turns out to be. >The gTLD MoU is a formal agreement to control the supply of top-level >domain names. The agreement explicitly fixes the number of gTLDs (7) Indeed. The actual control is by POC, not CORE, so the source of the control is not economic at all. This fact is not minor. It is based on technical and legal concerns. The technical pertain to questions of scaling and the legal pertain to questions of policing. (I forgot to mention the trademark policing concern in my previous note.) This does, in fact, result in requiring an approval process for new names and a restriction on the number. >so there is no need for it to formally set prices. Nothing in the >definition >of a cartel requires joint marketing, contrary to Dave's assertion. I was using the American Heritage list of behaviors. For that matter, your own definition used a "such as" description so neither entry claimed to be comprehensive. If there is another basis for rejecting joint marketing as one of the possible behaviors, let us know. >The purpose in this case is not so much profit maximization >(although ISOC's and ITU's desire to institutionalize their roles in >Internet governance might be looked at in that way), >but it is an attempt to restrict new entry. That's an ironic view, since a major point of the exercise is to increase the number of registrars. Given that roughly 90 have come into the process for just this first round, I'd say it's quite successful. So your concern is about 'new entry' of names, not registrars, I presume? Here the real problem is one of timing and not quantity. There will be more new gTLDs, assuming that governments and others with specialized control don't get in the way. The scaling concern requires doing this incrementally but it is clear that the technical side is comfortable with 150 or even 300 new names now. The lawyers are the real problem. They insisted on zero new names and have convinced people like senior US government staffers that more are a problem. There has been a remarkable lack of willingness to compromise from some powerful members of that consistency, namely from among large corporations in the US. My own guess is that their influence will be reduced as the operation develops and is seen to be safe and reliable. More importantly, support for policing is quite poor with the NSI arrangement and will be considerably more helpful through POC/CORE. This is explicitly in the technical plans. >Dave, we've been down this route before. >One fact that emerged clearly from the US Dept of Commerce comments >and testimony is that DNS is highly scalable. There may be transitional >operational issues in terms of how quickly they are introduced, >but the submissions of NSI, and even Postel, made it clear that >there is no reason why there can't be as many TLDs as there are >SLDs. Milton, first, nothing you've said contradicts what I've said. Second, please keep in mind that I was part of the team that created the DNS and I've been dealing with Internet technical issues in scaling for roughly 25 years. More importantly, I researched this particular question rather carefully during this activity. You dismiss the matter of "transitional operational issues in terms of how quickly they are introduced" as if this were a minor concern. It isn't. That, of course, is what distinguishes people with an operations background from those without one. Let me repeat: Assuming that governments and lawyers do not get in the way, there will be more gTLDs added as soon as operationally prudent. On the matter of scaling I've reported the result of that research a number of times, and here is the summary: Opinions from highly experienced and responsible experts knowledgeable about DNS behavior varies. At the low end, everyone is comfortable with 150 new names. Almost everyone is comfortable with 300. After that some experts get rather concerned, although some opinions hold that a total of 10,000 TLDs would work ok. Those with an operations background deal with such a diversity of opinion by proceeding carefully and incrementally. If a high number is safe, the cost of this caution is time. If a low number is correct, the cost of proceeding too quickly is that the DNS breaks. The latter is an unacceptable outcome. Hence as a matter of responsible administration, this requires going cautiously and that is all that is being done. d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker dcrocker@imc.org Internet Mail Consortium +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 USA info@imc.org , http://www.imc.org ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Nov 20 04:20:58 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id EAA14537 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 04:20:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from sigma.itu.ch (sigma.itu.ch [156.106.128.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id EAA14532 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 04:20:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from ties.itu.ch (ties.itu.ch) by ITU.CH (PMDF V5.0-6 #16074) id <01IQ7GBU7FHOA3CYPY@ITU.CH>; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:22:35 +0200 Received: from bob.itu.ch (usr0-08.itu.ch [156.106.192.161]) by ties.itu.ch (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11111; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:22:20 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:27:30 +0100 From: Robert Shaw Subject: Re: FW: evaluation of the IWG on DNS To: milton@scils.rutgers.edu Cc: apple@apnic.net Message-id: <34734BB2.C8465FE3@itu.int> Organization: ITU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <01BCF44E.92612E00.bgreene@cisco.com> <347310E6.5DC6@scils.rutgers.edu> Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Milton Mueller wrote: > > Dave, et al: > I will grant you that Gordon Cook's lively newsletter often > contains equal measures of rumour and fact. On one essential Well, actually I'd disagree. I'd say that Gordon Cook's newsletter has a higher content of rumour. :-) > point, however, I think Crocker's response is off target. > > The gTLD MoU is a "cartel". The term is neither inflammatory > nor unfair; it is a matter of economic science. A cartel is defined > as "a formal agreement between firms in an oligopolistic market to > cooperate with regard to agreed procedures on such variables as > price and ouput. The result is diminished competition and cooperation > over objectives as, for example, joint profit maximization or > avoidance of new entry." (MIT dictionary of economics) > > The gTLD MoU is a formal agreement to control the supply of top-level > domain names. The agreement explicitly fixes the number of gTLDs (7) > in the same way as, and for much the same purposes as, OPEC controlled > the production of oil by its member states. As a matter of practice, > controlling supply has the same effect as controlling price, > so there is no need for it to formally set prices. Nothing in the > definition of a cartel requires joint marketing, contrary to Dave's assertion. Oh please... you're mistaken. See http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/faq.html, Section 1.2. It says: "The gTLD-MoU attempts to balance the many (and often disparate) interests of the many current and future stakeholders in the Internet DNS. Toward that goal, the MoU is intentionally designed to be open-ended and will be adapted to evolving requirements. The MoU was developed as part of a DNS administration plan from the now-dissolved International Ad Hoc Committee (IAHC). The MoU is an explicit recognition of a need to formalize the consultative policy framework for continued evolution of the Internet DNS." Now personally, as a member of iPOC, I may think there should be hundreds if not thousands of gTLDs (indeed I do). In fact, I don't believe there is any method to handle name space scaling problems without moving to these numbers. But *it doesn't really matter what my personal opinion is*. My job, according to Section 6g of the gTLD-MoU is to synthesize the viewpoints of many stakeholders. Now on one side we have folks who think we should just have wild-proliferation of gTLDs. On the other side, we have folks who don't want any more gTLDs. 7 was a compromise we reached - paramount is demonstrating the viability of the dispute resolution mechanisms before further scaling. > The purpose in this case is not so much profit maximization > (although ISOC's and ITU's desire to institutionalize their roles in > Internet governance might be looked at in that way), > but it is an attempt to restrict new entry. > Profit maximization? Attempt to restrict new entry? Fiddlesticks. Where do you dream up this silly stuff? > > > > Criticisms about the control of available gTLDs ignore legitimate > questions about DNS scaling. > > > > Dave, we've been down this route before. One fact that emerged clearly from > the US Dept of Commerce comments and testimony is that DNS is highly scalable. > There may be transitional operational issues in terms of how quickly they are introduced, > but the submissions of NSI, and even Postel, made it clear that > there is no reason why there can't be as many TLDs as there are > SLDs. The immediate issues aren't technical - they're procedural, business, intellectual property, public policy issues. Technical issues are the least of our problems. Robert -- Robert Shaw (shaw@itu.int) Advisor, Global Information Infrastructure International Telecommunication Union (http://www.itu.int) Place des Nations, 1211 Geneva 20, Switzerland ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Nov 20 05:56:57 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id FAA15037 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:56:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from scils.rutgers.edu (scils.rutgers.edu [128.6.160.78]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with SMTP id FAA15032 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:56:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from mueller.rutgers.edu (mueller.rutgers.edu [128.6.160.98]) by scils.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA16143; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:56:51 -0500 Message-ID: <347352C7.6657C282@scils.rutgers.edu> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:57:44 -0500 From: Milton Mueller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Shaw CC: apple@apnic.net Subject: Re: FW: evaluation of the IWG on DNS X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <01BCF44E.92612E00.bgreene@cisco.com> <347310E6.5DC6@scils.rutgers.edu> <34734BB2.C8465FE3@itu.int> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Robert "fiddlesticks" Shaw wrote: > The MoU is an explicit recognition > of a need to formalize the consultative policy framework for > continued evolution of > the Internet DNS." I believe that you and Crocker are sincere about this. Your mistake, I believe, is that this (formalizing the consultative policy framework) can be done without cartel-izing the supply of top-level domain names. > Now personally, as a member of iPOC, I may think there should be > hundreds if not > thousands of gTLDs (indeed I do). In fact, I don't believe there is > any method to handle > name space scaling problems without moving to these numbers. But *it > doesn't really matter what my personal opinion is*. My job, according > to Section 6g of the gTLD-MoU is to synthesize the viewpoints of many > stakeholders. Now on one side we have folks who think we should just > have wild-proliferation of gTLDs. On the other side, we have folks who > don't want any more gTLDs. 7 was a compromise we reached - paramount > is demonstrating the viability of the dispute resolution mechanisms > before further scaling. Robert, this is precisely the point. In a competitive market, it is supply and demand--nothing else--that determines how many TLDs there are. Not Robert Shaw's opinion, not Milton Mueller's opinion, not a "synthesis of the viewpoints of many different stakeholders." In making this statement, you are proving my point that the system is designed to control supply based on criteria other than free competition. Please keep in mind that in my usage, at least, the term "cartel" is not name-calling but a simply an economically precise way of describing certain market conditions. > Profit maximization? Attempt to restrict new entry? Fiddlesticks. > Where do you dream up this silly stuff? > Omigod! the "f" word! ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Nov 20 06:11:18 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id GAA15114 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:11:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from fractal.chaos.com (fractal.chaos.com [206.5.17.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with SMTP id GAA15109 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:11:12 +0900 (JST) Received: from [206.5.17.2] by fractal.chaos.com (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.abie) with ESMTP id ja021953 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:13:57 -0500 X-Sender: amr@fractal.chaos.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro 4.0 Beta 7 (build 224) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:13:56 -0500 To: Milton Mueller From: Tony Rutkowski Subject: Re: FW: evaluation of the IWG on DNS Cc: apple@apnic.net In-Reply-To: <347352C7.6657C282@scils.rutgers.edu> References: <01BCF44E.92612E00.bgreene@cisco.com> <347310E6.5DC6@scils.rutgers.edu> <34734BB2.C8465FE3@itu.int> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: <21135790900793@chaos.com> Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Milton, In addition, the CORE articles of incorporation and regulations are worth analysis as well. They are prepared in the style of Swiss based cartels rather than open industry organizations. I've been involved in some of the latter as a board member in Switzerland, and open industry organizations are simply not constructed with the same kind of controls - particularly with respect to information - that appears in the CORE documents. cheers, --tony ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Nov 20 07:46:38 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id HAA15738 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:46:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from merki.connect.com.au (merki.connect.com.au [192.189.54.36]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id HAA15733 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:46:23 +0900 (JST) From: Online@aba.gov.au Received: from janus.UUCP (Uaba@localhost) by merki.connect.com.au with UUCP id JAA06778 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6 for apple@apnic.net); Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:49:15 +1100 (EST) Received: by janus.aba.gov.au (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA29001; Thu, 20 Nov 97 09:36:46 +1100 X400-Received: by mta abamta in /PRMD=ausgovaba/ADMD=telememo/C=au; Relayed; 20 Nov 97 09:36:44 +1100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ausgovaba/ADMD=telememo/C=au; Relayed; 20 Nov 97 09:44:22 +0000 Date: 20 Nov 97 09:36:46 +1100 Delivery-Date: 20 Nov 97 09:36:46 +1100 Message-Type: Multiple Part X400-Originator: Online@aba.gov.au X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ausgovaba/ADMD=telememo/C=au;XGW-971120094422+0000-00148] X400-Recipients: apple@apnic.net Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Message-Id: <1120094422-FW: Internet Law and Policy Forum - conf* @MHS> Importance: normal Subject: FW: Internet Law and Policy Forum - conf Autoforwarded: FALSE To: apple@apnic.net Priority: normal Conversion: Allowed Conversion-With-Loss: Allowed Alternate-Recipient: Prohibited Content-Identifier: FW: Internet Law Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk I came across this this morning and I thought it may be of interest to some of you. Cheers David ---------- From: SMTP:conference-return@ilpf.org/ To: /PRMD=Internet/ADMD= /C=us/DD.RFC-822=conference@ilpf.org/ Subject: Internet Law and Policy Forum - conferen Date: Thursday, 20 November 1997 1:48AM The Internet Law and Policy Forum Presents Releasing the Internet Economy - ECommerce and Content 7-8 January 1998 Bell Harbor International Conference Center Seattle, Washington USA Governments and industry talk of global frameworks to stabilize and secure electronic commerce, but will these legal and policy frameworks unleash the power and promise of the Internet, or will they constrain its growth as a viable business and social environment? Despite the global discussion of self-regulation and private sector solutions, there is no sign of less regulation of the Internet. What role can the Internet-centric or dependent industries play in shaping the future of the electronic commerce? How will the Internet economy be realized? "Releasing the Internet Economy" is a unique conference -- a dialogue between Internet companies, governments and other stakeholders -- on the present issues and future promise of the Internet. The Internet Law and Policy Forum (ILPF) brings law, policy and technology together on a single platform to test the assumptions about content and electronic commerce regulation. Further information about the conference, registration and sponsorship opportunities can be obtained on the ILPF web site at http://www.ilpf.org -- Marilyn Malenfant Voice: +1.514.288.1966 Administrative Coordinator Fax: +1.514.288.1177 Internet Law and Policy Forum Email: malenfant@ilpf.org Montreal, Canada http://www.ilpf.org ----------------------------------------------------- David Goldstein Project Officer, On-line Services Australian Broadcasting Authority e-mail: online@aba.gov.au phone: +61 2 9334 7938 fax: +61 2 9334 7799 URL: http://www.dca.gov.au/aba/hpcov.htm ______________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Nov 20 08:00:05 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id IAA15842 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:00:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from farley.cisco.com (farley.cisco.com [204.179.2.54]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id HAA15831; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:59:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from kiwi.cisco.com (kiwi [199.35.98.98]) by farley.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA00074; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgreene-pc.cisco.com ([171.68.85.151]) by kiwi.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/CISCO.WS.1.2) with SMTP id OAA10423; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:43:36 +0800 Message-ID: <01BCF57F.A0E5D5C0.bgreene@cisco.com> From: Barry Raveendran Greene Reply-To: "bgreene@cisco.com" Subject: APRICOT III - Registration is Open Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:34:41 +0800 Organization: Cisco Systems - Corporate Consulting Group X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk [Apologies for the duplicates....] Asia & Pacific Rim Internet Conference on Operational Technologies APRICOT Manila, Philippines 14-20 February, 1998 Registration for APRICOT is now open. See out Web page for details: http://www.apricot.net Sign up early to get your hotel reserved and conference fees at discount rates! This year, we have the usual list of the who's of the Internet (see the Web page for details). What is APRICOT? ---------------- Throughout Asia, Internet Service Providers, Backbone & Regional Networks, Web Hosting Facilities, Firewalls, and Private Intranets, are being installed at a staggering pace. The organizations responsible are under tremendous pressure to master the skills and policies necessary to operate & maintain these increasingly complex systems. APRICOT's mission is to satisfy this need for information. The week long summit consists of seminars, workshops, tutorials, conference sessions, birds-of-a-feather (BOFs), and other forums with the goal of spreading and sharing the knowledge required to operate the increasingly complex Asia Pacific Internet topology. APRICOT week is also the week the Asia Pacific Network Information Center (APNIC) and the Asia & Pacific Internet Association (APIA) annual membership meetings. ? The First APRICOT was held in Singapore January 1996. It was attended by over 280 people from 18 different countries, all involved in delivering Internet Services. ? The Second APRICOT was held in Hong Kong in January 1997 and included 630 people from 25 countries. ? APRICOT's mission is to address the critical need to develop and advance the skills and understanding necessary to grow a robust Internet infrastructure in the Asia-Pacific region. ? APRICOT is not just another 'pure-promotional' Internet conference; APRICOT brings networking experts together with those who can benefit most from their expertise. ? The people who attend APRICOT are the real people building the Internet in the Asia & Pacific region. Many of best Internet engineers attend APRICOT either to teach, present, or do their own "networking." For More Information -------------------- Watch http://www.apricot.net for upcoming final program and registration information OR send a message to apricot-info@apricot.net OR call APNIC +81 3 5500-0480 OR Fax APNIC at +81 3 5500-0481 Want to Sponsor APRICOT? ------------------------ If your organization would like to sponsor APRICOT, please send a note to: apricot-info@apricot.net. -- -- -- Barry Raveendran Greene APRICOT Organization Committee ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Nov 20 08:09:12 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id IAA15948 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:09:12 +0900 (JST) Received: from proper.com (proper.com [165.227.249.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA15943 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:09:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from omni.imc.org (d43.netgate.net [205.214.160.77]) by proper.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12795; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:08:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711192308.PAA12795@proper.com> X-Sender: dhcmail@imc.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro 4.0 Beta 7 (build 224) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:10:48 -0800 To: Milton Mueller From: Dave Crocker / IMC Subject: Re: FW: evaluation of the IWG on DNS Cc: Robert Shaw , apple@apnic.net In-Reply-To: <347352C7.6657C282@scils.rutgers.edu> References: <01BCF44E.92612E00.bgreene@cisco.com> <347310E6.5DC6@scils.rutgers.edu> <34734BB2.C8465FE3@itu.int> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk At 03:57 PM 11/19/97 -0500, Milton Mueller wrote: >I believe that you and Crocker are sincere about this. Your mistake, I >believe, >is that this (formalizing the consultative policy framework) >can be done without cartel-izing the supply of top-level domain names. Milton, it is always easy to criticize the plans produced by others, especially when the domain of discourse is so complicated and so human. What is remarkably difficult is to produce plans of one's own. If you are so certain that the current scheme has a fundamentally incorrect approach, then where is the counter proposal? (The proposal needs detail, of course, since the difficult part is not an idea but fleshing it out.) This activity is 3 1/2 years old. The IAHC/POC work is one year old. Things have been highly public and highly reviewed. There has been plenty of time for others to formulate detailed counter-proposals. What we see is that not none have been offered, much less subject to the same rigours of public review and revision. Shall we put the world on hold, hoping that someone, sometime, may yet be forthcoming with such an improved plan. Or shall we move ahead, implement the current plan, make it work, and learn from it? >Robert, this is precisely the point. In a competitive market, it is >supply and demand--nothing else--that determines how many TLDs there >are. Nothing else? Again it would seem that the concerns about scaling and the concerns about legal policing are to be ignored. >at least, the term "cartel" is not name-calling but a simply an >economically precise way of describing certain market conditions. so you are rejecting my counter-points about the technical aspects of the term? d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker dcrocker@imc.org Internet Mail Consortium +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 USA info@imc.org , http://www.imc.org ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Nov 20 09:43:45 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id JAA16899 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:43:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from armstrong.apic.net (armstrong.apic.net [203.22.101.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id JAA16889 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:43:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from boss.apic.net (boss.apic.net [203.22.102.40]) by armstrong.apic.net (8.8.6/APIC-2.1) with SMTP id LAA17814; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:46:49 +1100 (EST) X-Org: The Asia Pacific Internet Company Pty. Ltd. X-URL: http://www.apic.net/ Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971120114113.0077e4d8@mail.apic.net> X-Sender: bala@mail.apic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:41:13 +1100 To: apple@apnic.net, SEASIA-L@MSU.EDU From: Bala Pillai Subject: APEC97 Website Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk APEC 97 has now officially started. The website is at http://apec97.gc.ca cheers../bala --------------------------------------------------------------------- bala pillai bala@apic.net * For quick info on AIM send blank founder * asian internet marketing (aim) cybercommunity ph: +61 2 9419 5333 fax: +61 2 9419 5155 where pan-asian internet marketing, media and sales pioneers mingle. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Nov 20 13:27:44 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id NAA18516 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:27:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from sigma.itu.ch (sigma.itu.ch [156.106.128.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id NAA18509 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:27:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from ties.itu.ch (ties.itu.ch) by ITU.CH (PMDF V5.0-6 #16074) id <01IQ7ZFPGFUKA3CYPY@ITU.CH>; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:30:06 +0200 Received: from bob.itu.ch (usr0-05.itu.ch [156.106.192.158]) by ties.itu.ch (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA22208; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:29:54 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:34:19 +0100 From: Robert Shaw Subject: Re: FW: evaluation of the IWG on DNS To: Tony Rutkowski Cc: Milton Mueller , apple@apnic.net Message-id: <3473CBDB.CC922D4D@itu.int> Organization: ITU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <01BCF44E.92612E00.bgreene@cisco.com> <347310E6.5DC6@scils.rutgers.edu> <34734BB2.C8465FE3@itu.int> <21135790900793@chaos.com> Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Tony Rutkowski wrote: > > Milton, > > In addition, the CORE articles of incorporation and > regulations are worth analysis as well. They are prepared > in the style of Swiss based cartels rather than open industry > organizations. I've been involved in some of the latter > as a board member in Switzerland, and open industry > organizations are simply not constructed with the same > kind of controls - particularly with respect to > information - that appears in the CORE documents. > > cheers, Tony, You're going to have to do better than that - cite the offensive article of the CORE Articles of Association or CORE-MoU. Please also inform us which Swiss Association you are a board member of and point us to their Articles of Association. Robert -- Robert Shaw (shaw@itu.int) Advisor, Global Information Infrastructure International Telecommunication Union (http://www.itu.int) Place des Nations, 1211 Geneva 20, Switzerland ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Nov 20 14:12:54 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id OAA18803 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:12:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from sigma.itu.ch (sigma.itu.ch [156.106.128.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA18796 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:12:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from ties.itu.ch (ties.itu.ch) by ITU.CH (PMDF V5.0-6 #16074) id <01IQ810IAPK0A3CYPY@ITU.CH>; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:15:07 +0200 Received: from bob.itu.ch (usr0-05.itu.ch [156.106.192.158]) by ties.itu.ch (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA13870; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:14:54 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:18:02 +0100 From: Robert Shaw Subject: Re: FW: evaluation of the IWG on DNS To: Milton Mueller Cc: apple@apnic.net Message-id: <3473D61A.36A134F6@itu.int> Organization: ITU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <01BCF44E.92612E00.bgreene@cisco.com> <347310E6.5DC6@scils.rutgers.edu> <34734BB2.C8465FE3@itu.int> <347352C7.6657C282@scils.rutgers.edu> Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Milton Mueller wrote: > > Robert "fiddlesticks" Shaw wrote: > :-) > > The MoU is an explicit recognition of a need to formalize the > > consultative policy framework for continued evolution of the Internet > > DNS." > > I believe that you and Crocker are sincere about this. Your mistake, I > believe, is that this (formalizing the consultative policy framework) > can be done without cartel-izing the supply of top-level domain names. > For the life of me, I can't parse this sentence into any sort of cogent thought or conclusion. > Robert, this is precisely the point. In a competitive market, it is > supply and demand--nothing else--that determines how many TLDs there > are. Not Robert Shaw's opinion, not Milton Mueller's opinion, not a > "synthesis of the viewpoints of many different stakeholders." In making this > statement, you are proving my point that the system is designed to control supply > based on criteria other than free competition. Please keep in mind that in my > usage, at least, the term "cartel" is not name-calling but a simply an > economically precise way of describing certain market conditions. > First, you should define a "competitive market" in gTLD registration services. Is it 1000 registrars sharing 100 gTLDs or 1000 registrars each with their own gTLD? Is a registrar having monopoly registration rights on .inc or .com or .france or .usa or .sex, ad infinitum, a "competitive market"? If you think about it, it is clear that this is *not* a pure "supply and demand" issue. The supply of certain strings, abbreviations, acronyms with a certain contextual value *is limited*. As an exercise, pick any category of contextual meaning then sit down and list of all short strings, abbreviations, acronyms that relay that *same meaning* (hint, try "news", names of "France", "sex", "incorporated"). Now ask yourself: "if I award global perpetual registration rights to each of those strings on a one-to-one registrar/gTLD relationship, have I introduced a "competitive market"? The answer is obvious - the rest is just semantics. Robert -- Robert Shaw (shaw@itu.int) Advisor, Global Information Infrastructure International Telecommunication Union (http://www.itu.int) Place des Nations, 1211 Geneva 20, Switzerland ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Nov 21 11:31:29 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA25928 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:31:29 +0900 (JST) Received: from scils.rutgers.edu (scils.rutgers.edu [128.6.160.78]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA25919 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:31:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from mueller.rutgers.edu (mueller.rutgers.edu [128.6.160.98]) by scils.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA26015 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:31:31 -0500 Message-ID: <3474F2CC.DCDE801F@scils.rutgers.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:32:45 -0500 From: Milton Mueller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apple Subject: Regulatory cartels X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <01BCF44E.92612E00.bgreene@cisco.com> <347310E6.5DC6@scils.rutgers.edu> <34734BB2.C8465FE3@itu.int> <347352C7.6657C282@scils.rutgers.edu> <3473D61A.36A134F6@itu.int> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Robert Shaw wrote: > First, you should define a "competitive market" in gTLD registration > services. > Is it 1000 registrars sharing 100 gTLDs or 1000 registrars each with > their own > gTLD? Is a registrar having monopoly registration rights on .inc or > .com or .france > or .usa or .sex, ad infinitum, a "competitive market"? There are advantages and disadvantages to both exclusive and shared TLDs.Shared TLDs encourage simple price competition but do not encourage innovative service applications or branding, and therefore might not attract the kind of investment that an exclusive one would. The question I return to you is: why can't we have both? If the gTLD-MoU was simply one consortium of TLD suppliers, which allowed customers the choice of a shared-registry arrangement in ADDITION to new exlcusive gTLDs, I would be an enthusiastic supporter of it. The problem is that gTLD-MoU appears to want to set itself up as the ONLY authority able to authorize new gTLDs, and it wants to do so on its own initiative rather than the initiative of new suppliers responding to demand. The motive for doing so, as Crocker and others have made abundantly clear, is to "police" (his word) the supply and content of TLD names and police the assignment of SLDs by the registries. In some respects, "cartel" is not entirely accurate; "regulatory cartel" would be more suitable as a label for what is going on. The objective is not primarily profit maximization--at this stage--but exploitation of market entry restrictions for regulatory as well as economic purposes. It is similar to broadcast licensing in that regard. And, just as broadcast licensing eventually led to purely profit- motivated restrictions on entry as the privileged licensees sought to protect themselves from new competition, so would the gTLD-MoU in its present form. --Milton Mueller ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Nov 21 18:32:50 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id SAA00263 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:32:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from exchange1.ntu.ac.sg (exchange1.ntu.edu.sg [155.69.1.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA00254 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:32:44 +0900 (JST) Received: by exchange1.ntu.edu.sg with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:32:22 +0800 Message-ID: From: Ang Peng Hwa To: "'APPLe'" Subject: Malaysia to monitor Net news Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:08:37 +0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk There is a 19 November story from a Malaysian morning paper, The Star, about Malaysia reading *all foreign reports about the country* and discussing negative reports at the following site: http://www.jaring.my/~star/wednesday/19m1sc.html Only part of the report is extracted for copyright reasons. Perhaps someone (Bala?) would care to comment because this action goes against the trend of most, if not all, countries to back off on Internet content regulation. Also, are there implications for the Malaysian Multimedia Super Corridor? Or would reports from it would be deemed local and not subject to such screening and discussion? Is there more than meets the eye? Regards, Ang Peng Hwa Panel to screen foreign reports MALACCA: A committee has been set up to screen all foreign reports about the country which are carried via the Internet, Culture, Arts and Tourism Ministry deputy secretary-general Datuk Tengku Alaudin Tengku Abdul Majid said yesterday. "The committee will browse through the Internet and read the articles on the country," he said. Tengku Alaudin said negative articles will be extracted and discussed on a regular basis. ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Nov 21 21:52:23 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id VAA01435 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:52:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from gabriela.ph.net ([165.220.3.1] (may be forged)) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id VAA01429 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:52:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from server.hq.ph.net (server.hq.ph.net [165.220.1.97]) by gabriela.ph.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01169 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:21:45 +0800 (GMT+0800) Received: from localhost (hcadiz@localhost) by server.hq.ph.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA29870; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:22:20 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:22:20 -0800 (GMT+8) From: "Horacio T. Cadiz" To: Ang Peng Hwa cc: "'APPLe'" Subject: Re: Malaysia to monitor Net news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Ang Peng Hwa wrote: > There is a 19 November story from a Malaysian morning paper, The Star, > about Malaysia reading *all foreign reports about the country* and > discussing negative reports at the following site: > > http://www.jaring.my/~star/wednesday/19m1sc.html > > Only part of the report is extracted for copyright reasons. > > Perhaps someone (Bala?) would care to comment because this action goes > against the trend of most, if not all, countries to back off on Internet > content regulation. Also, are there implications for the Malaysian ^^^^^^^^^^ It only said that they are monitoring and discussing negative reports on Malaysia. It didn't say anything about regulating, banning, or stopping the reports from coming in. I would expect them to do counter the negative reports, that is to be expected. As long as they don't ban the publication of the bad press, I don't see anything wrong with it. **************************************************************** * Horacio T. Cadiz hcadiz@ph.net www.ph.net/~hcadiz * * Philippine Network Foundation, Inc (PFI) * * finger hcadiz@gabriela.ph.net for PGP key * *--------------------------------------------------------------* * "Carpe per diem!" "Seize the paycheck!" * **************************************************************** ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sat Nov 22 00:31:54 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA02327 for apple-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:31:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from sigma.itu.ch (sigma.itu.ch [156.106.128.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id AAA02322 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:31:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from ties.itu.ch (ties.itu.ch) by ITU.CH (PMDF V5.0-6 #16074) id <01IQA0W8P6XWA8C18T@ITU.CH>; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:33:51 +0200 Received: from bob.itu.ch (fw.itu.ch [156.106.192.3]) by ties.itu.ch (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA08215; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:31:52 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:37:46 +0100 From: Robert Shaw Subject: gTLD-MoU News (November 21, 1997) To: gtld-news@gtld-mou.org Message-id: <3475B8DA.9E3E82BF@itu.int> Organization: ITU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk gTLD-MoU News (November 21, 1997) Special note: If you are receiving this news through subscription to either the gtld-announce@gtld-mou.org or gtld-discuss@gtld-mou.org mailing lists, unsubscription information is available at http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/maillist.htm The following updates have been posted on the gTLD-MoU web site at http://www.gtld-mou.org. As always, news announcements relating to the gTLD-MoU can be found at http://www.gtld-mou.org/index.html#news. November 21, 1997: The deadline for submission of comments to the iPOC Request for Comments Notice-97-03, "Proposed Trademark Dispute Resolution: Draft Substantive Guidelines for Administrative Domain Name Challenge Panels", had earlier been extended from November 7 to November 21, 1997. In response to a number of recent requests, and to assure that there is sufficient time for additional comments to be submitted, that deadline has again been extended, from November 21 to December 5, 1997. Please see the notice at http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/rfcs.html#97-03 and the questions at http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/notice-97-03.html for details on submission of comments and links to received comments. Robert -- Robert Shaw (shaw@itu.int) Advisor, Global Information Infrastructure International Telecommunication Union (http://www.itu.int) Place des Nations, 1211 Geneva 20, Switzerland ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sat Nov 22 00:42:22 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id AAA02420 for apple-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:42:22 +0900 (JST) Received: from sigma.itu.ch (sigma.itu.ch [156.106.128.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id AAA02404 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:41:17 +0900 (JST) Received: from ties.itu.ch (ties.itu.ch) by ITU.CH (PMDF V5.0-6 #16074) id <01IQA0347S2MA8C18T@ITU.CH>; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:43:23 +0200 Received: from bob.itu.ch (fw.itu.ch [156.106.192.3]) by ties.itu.ch (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA12429; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:05:45 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:11:38 +0100 From: Robert Shaw Subject: gTLD-MoU News (November 21, 1997) To: gtld-news@gtld-mou.org Message-id: <3475B2BA.E986A8FA@itu.int> Organization: ITU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3403EA1E.CD30DE69@itu.int> <343C71B4.1581393@itu.int> <34465444.AAB0241E@itu.int> <344B4583.D40F5323@itu.int> <34508F23.EBC2B20@itu.int> <3459BD72.6FEC66E1@itu.int> <346B725C.846D8090@itu.int> Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk gTLD-MoU News (November 21, 1997) Special note: If you are receiving this news through subscription to either the gtld-announce@gtld-mou.org or gtld-discuss@gtld-mou.org mailing lists, unsubscription information is available at http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/maillist.htm The following updates have been posted on the gTLD-MoU web site at http://www.gtld-mou.org. As always, news announcements relating to the gTLD-MoU can be found at http://www.gtld-mou.org/index.html#news. November 21, 1997: The deadline for submission of comments to the iPOC Request for Comments Notice-97-03, "Proposed Trademark Dispute Resolution: Draft Substantive Guidelines for Administrative Domain Name Challenge Panels", had earlier been extended from November 7 to November 21, 1997. In response to a number of recent requests, and to assure that there is sufficient time for additional comments to be submitted, that deadline has again been extended, from November 21 to December 5, 1997. Please see the notice at http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/rfcs.html#97-03 and the questions at http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/notice-97-03.html for details on submission of comments and links to received comments. Robert -- Robert Shaw (shaw@itu.int) Advisor, Global Information Infrastructure International Telecommunication Union (http://www.itu.int) Place des Nations, 1211 Geneva 20, Switzerland ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sat Nov 22 04:20:52 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id EAA03247 for apple-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:20:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from info.isoc.org (info.isoc.org [198.6.250.9]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id EAA03242 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:20:42 +0900 (JST) Received: from linus.isoc.org (mailhub.isoc.org [192.168.1.10]) by info.isoc.org (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id OAA15460; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:23:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from latitude.isoc.org (pool6.lucy.isoc.org [192.168.1.36]) by linus.isoc.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA24298; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:18:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971121142326.00722970@pop.isoc.org> X-Sender: heath@pop.isoc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:23:26 -0500 To: Milton Mueller , apple From: Don Heath Subject: Re: Regulatory cartels In-Reply-To: <3474F2CC.DCDE801F@scils.rutgers.edu> References: <01BCF44E.92612E00.bgreene@cisco.com> <347310E6.5DC6@scils.rutgers.edu> <34734BB2.C8465FE3@itu.int> <347352C7.6657C282@scils.rutgers.edu> <3473D61A.36A134F6@itu.int> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk At 09:32 PM 11/20/97 -0500, Milton Mueller wrote: >Robert Shaw wrote: > >> First, you should define a "competitive market" in gTLD registration >> services. >> Is it 1000 registrars sharing 100 gTLDs or 1000 registrars each with >> their own >> gTLD? Is a registrar having monopoly registration rights on .inc or >> .com or .france >> or .usa or .sex, ad infinitum, a "competitive market"? > >There are advantages and disadvantages to both exclusive and shared >TLDs.Shared TLDs encourage simple price competition but do not encourage > >innovative service applications or branding, and therefore might not >attract the >kind of investment that an exclusive one would. The question I return to >you is: Hello Milton Hmmmmmmm. It seems to me one of the best ways for registrars to differentiate themselves in the shared model, is in the services they provide! In addition, re your comment on branding - the registrars are not the folks who are doing branding! NSI has certainly done noting to make .com a brand. They have, of late, gotten in front of the parade and waved their arms, but the people and businesses using .com are the folks who have made ,com a desirable brand - not the sole registrar!! That, and the explosive growth of the Internet in the past few years. ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sun Nov 23 02:35:13 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id CAA07906 for apple-outgoing; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 02:35:13 +0900 (JST) Received: from exchange1.ntu.ac.sg (exchange1.ntu.edu.sg [155.69.1.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id CAA07900 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 02:35:08 +0900 (JST) Received: by exchange1.ntu.edu.sg with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:34:48 +0800 Message-ID: From: Ang Peng Hwa To: "'Horacio T. Cadiz '" Cc: "''APPLe' '" Subject: RE: Malaysia to monitor Net news Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:34:38 +0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Horacio wrote: >It only said that they are monitoring and discussing negative >reports on Malaysia. It didn't say anything about regulating, banning, >or stopping the reports from coming in. I would expect them to do >counter the negative reports, that is to be expected. As long as they >don't ban the publication of the bad press, I don't see anything wrong >with it. Please do not take what I write below as patronising because there are serious points. I take it that this is your line of understanding: 1. The reports about Malaysia are on the Internet. 2. They come from outside Malaysia. 3. The Internet "cannot" be censored. 4. And the powers that be are only monitoring and discussing the reports. 5. As content is not directly affected, there is no content regulation. The breakdown in syllogism is in Point 2. The reports on the Internet must have a domestic source. By concentrating on the domestic source, the information flows to the outside world is affected and the information that is fed back is therefor affected. Content regulation need not always be directly on content. While teaching my media law course, I used to show my students a list of things that governments have deployed to censor journalists. This can range from the extremely crude but highly effective weapon of murder and sending a bullet to more sophisticated methods such as "monitoring" reports to sending stoolies to tail journalists. Monitoring and discussing reports, and apparently only negative reports, are a form of content regulation because the aim is to get the journalist to tone down on negative reporting. The evidence, even from the USA, is that such methods can be highly effective. Regards, Ang Peng Hwa ---------- From: Horacio T. Cadiz To: Ang Peng Hwa Cc: 'APPLe' Sent: 22/11/97 11:22:20 AM Subject: Re: Malaysia to monitor Net news On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Ang Peng Hwa wrote: > There is a 19 November story from a Malaysian morning paper, The Star, > about Malaysia reading *all foreign reports about the country* and > discussing negative reports at the following site: > > http://www.jaring.my/~star/wednesday/19m1sc.html > > Only part of the report is extracted for copyright reasons. > > Perhaps someone (Bala?) would care to comment because this action goes > against the trend of most, if not all, countries to back off on Internet > content regulation. Also, are there implications for the Malaysian ^^^^^^^^^^ It only said that they are monitoring and discussing negative reports on Malaysia. It didn't say anything about regulating, banning, or stopping the reports from coming in. I would expect them to do counter the negative reports, that is to be expected. As long as they don't ban the publication of the bad press, I don't see anything wrong with it. **************************************************************** * Horacio T. Cadiz hcadiz@ph.net www.ph.net/~hcadiz * * Philippine Network Foundation, Inc (PFI) * * finger hcadiz@gabriela.ph.net for PGP key * *--------------------------------------------------------------* * "Carpe per diem!" "Seize the paycheck!" * **************************************************************** ________________________________________________________________________ ___ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sun Nov 23 08:55:24 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id IAA08769 for apple-outgoing; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 08:55:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from armstrong.apic.net (armstrong.apic.net [203.22.101.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA08764 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 08:55:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from boss.apic.net (boss.apic.net [203.22.102.40]) by armstrong.apic.net (8.8.6/APIC-2.1) with SMTP id KAA15599; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:58:34 +1100 (EST) X-Org: The Asia Pacific Internet Company Pty. Ltd. X-URL: http://www.apic.net/ Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971123105257.00a2797c@mail.apic.net> X-Sender: bala@mail.apic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:52:57 +1100 To: apple@apnic.net From: Bala Pillai Subject: Internet Self-Governance (fw) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk **forwarded message** From: "Steven Clift" Organization: Democracies Online To: isg@jrc.es Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:30:33 +0000 Subject: Re: [isg] ... - Internet Self-Governance Reply-to: clift@freenet.msp.mn.us CC: bala@apic.net Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) > Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:19:27 +0200 (EET) > From: risto.linturi@hpy.fi (Risto Linturi) > Your concept of having virtual democratic organizations > with their own virtual rules operating independent of > local governments like these independet virtual places were > independent countries and going there was like visiting another > country or even living there part time - this would be dramatic > paradigm shift. I am not sure that You meant this or just > to have Internet-based organizations running on sama status > as organizations formed by international treaties or agreements. Risto et al, In a global infosphere, let's just say a human rights discussion forum, I think you will need a global context for self-governance among the participants about how they use that space. We need something different than the anarchy of newsgroups, the limited audience "threads" of web conferencing, or the often individually hosted e-mail list. Let's just say we have and "Interactive Commons" that defines a number of "intersections" for "communities" to find one another, develop a relationship, and hold conversations. This might involve such factors as People and Groups, Geography, and Topic in some sort of mixture and grid for space naming. What we need is a organizational framework (multiple frameworks will emerge because a number of folks will rebel against rules the group decides it needs to have a useful relationship, be effective, etc.) that sets out the process for "home rule" or self-governance as long as a basic set of rights are maintained. As this moves from the global level say down to Germany where someone posts something that is illegal hate speech under German laws or defamatory under UK law then I would assume that whatever geographical area the forum claims to "be" or focus on would probably be fair game for authorities. The challenge is that if liability is more severe some places will these interactive tools just not be used because it is too risky? (for example is Minnesota E-Democracy or UK Citizen Online Democracy a "common-carrier" or an ISP as it relates to our unmoderated, yet rule based forums? What about moderated events - are we now publishers?) Of course even "domestic" rules have trouble when the technology and public use by its nature is global. Take a look at: http://www.malaysia.net based in Sydney, Australia. Here you have a "non-published" well respected journalist (still in Malaysia and banned in Singapore) based in Malaysia now writing stories for an e-mail list with 800 subscribers (90 percent back in Malaysia) that also has interactive discussions. There are even stories about one faction within the ruling elite in Malaysia leaking information to the Bala Pillai, the owner of Malaysia.Net to be posted to the list in order to influence inter-factional positioning. You also have a web board that once existed on the State of Sarawak's government home page, that once closed by the government (after people started using it to complain about the smoke coming from Indonesia and their "missing" state PM who took his family to the U.S. to get "advice on air pollution") showed up on Malaysia.Net. It is still there today, take a look. Cheers, Steven Clift Democracies Online > > Risto Linturi > > > >Greetings ISG, > > > >Due to recent travels I am just now getting a chance to review some > >of the postings to the ISG list. If there is a full web archive it > >would be great to get the URL. > > > >I wanted to quickly introduce myself and say hello. > > > >I am working to develop a new project called Democracies Online once > >work on the G7 Government Online and Democracy White Paper is > >finished. The Democracies Online proposal is on the web at: > >http://www.e-democracy.org/do And information on the pending G7 > >paper is at: http://www.state.mn.us/gol/democracy If you'd like to > >receive the free "Democracy Notes" e-mail newsletter once a month, > >please send an e-mail to: listserv@tc.umn.edu In the body of the > >message, write: subscribe do-notes Your Name > > > > > >I haven't had the chance to review most of the discussion so far, but > >while in Australia and New Zealand I ran into a number of issues > >related to "self-governance" of the Internet. I heard Ira Magaziner > >of the White House comment via satellite that the private sector > >should set their own standards and that they should adopt codes of > >conduct with minimal government interference. Noting the split from > >governmental standards bodies - i.e. the Internet Engineering Task > >Force, W3 Consortium, combined with the U.S. position of holding off > >on Internet regulation (if the EU moves heavily to place Internet > >standards into the Europe-based standards bureaucracy I expect to see > >a techo-standards war from many sources on the Internet toward that > >approach) - I wonder if we may someday come to see the Internet as > >"sovereign" like the United Nations, the OECD, and other international > >organizations? > > > >The problem is that the Internet's current version of self-governance > >is in a techno-elite philosopher king stage which generally resists > >the idea of democratic (user?) rights. Up until about a year ago > >things have been more or less feudal and now we have the emergence of > >large kingdoms based on the economic interests of large companies. > >So now we have governance wars with the erosion of respect for > >philosopher kings (or their companies have reigned them in) and > >negative repulsion based on what we sense we don't like verse having > >a democratic consensus on who will have "standing" in establishing, > >voting on, vetoing rules of governance on the Internet (which means > >the Information Society for that matter). Overall I predict a rocky > >road for all involved. > > > >Your comments and thoughts? > > > >Will the Internet come to have a constitution of its own? How about > >a bill of rights? My prediction is that after about five years of > >techno-bloodshed some sort of movement will emerge that will place > >Internet governance in a context that holds legitimatizing democratic > >weight. It will become sovereign unto itself with defined roles and > >rights of individuals, business and the nation state based on some > >sort of check and balance form of representation. In the end will > >this be good or bad, I am not sure, but it is certainly is an > >interesting road for humankind to travel. > > > >Steven Clift > >Director, Democracies Online (which isn't about Internet > >self-governance - but networking those interested in efforts like > >Minnesota E-Democracy, UK Citizens Online Democracy, etc.) > > > >Home Page: http://freenet.msp.mn.us/people/clift > > > >------------------------------------------------------- > > Steven L. Clift, Director, Democracies Online > > 3454 Fremont Ave S, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA > > Tel: 612-824-3747 E: clift@freenet.msp.mn.us > > > > http://www.e-democracy.org/do/ - Democracies Online > > http://freenet.msp.mn.us/people/clift/ - Home Page > >------------------------------------------------------- > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >IPTS/JRC Mailing list service - European Commission > >Contact listmaster@jrc.es for assistance if needed > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > IPTS/JRC Mailing list service - European Commission > Contact listmaster@jrc.es for assistance if needed > > ------------------------------------------------------- Steven L. Clift, Director, Democracies Online 3454 Fremont Ave S, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA Tel: 612-824-3747 E: clift@freenet.msp.mn.us http://www.e-democracy.org/do/ - Democracies Online http://freenet.msp.mn.us/people/clift/ - Home Page ------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sun Nov 23 09:46:37 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id JAA09008 for apple-outgoing; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:46:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from armstrong.apic.net (armstrong.apic.net [203.22.101.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id JAA09002 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:46:33 +0900 (JST) Received: from boss.apic.net (boss.apic.net [203.22.102.40]) by armstrong.apic.net (8.8.6/APIC-2.1) with SMTP id LAA17940 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:49:56 +1100 (EST) X-Org: The Asia Pacific Internet Company Pty. Ltd. X-URL: http://www.apic.net/ Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971123114419.00b97340@mail.apic.net> X-Sender: bala@mail.apic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:44:19 +1100 To: apple@apnic.net From: Bala Pillai Subject: Singapore/Malaysia Paper Walls (fw) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Friends, I attach this for context. Most of us intimate with given countries will know about these "illogical", "too-hard-basket" nuances which are a fact of life. And in many of our discussions on censorship, these local nuances are critical. I have a feeling that the Internet once established here, will drive some of these "too-hard-basket" inconsistencies in the print market away, but in the drive-up to Internet prevalence, will make Internet policy a painful thorny process. I think it would be useful if list-members highlighted more of these local nuances which will affect the mind-set of technocrats charged with Internet policy-making. cheers../bala bala@apic.net **forwarded message** Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 07:26:52 +0800 (MYT) Reply-To: pillai@mgg.pc.my Originator: general@jaring.my Sender: general@jaring.my From: pillai@mgg.pc.my (M.G.G. Pillai) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: SINGAPORE NEWSPAPERS In article <348044fc.12745996@news.jaring.my>, Yap Yok Foo (yfyap@pop.jaring.my) writes: >On 22 Nov 1997 01:34:39 GMT, "Paul" wrote: > >>Why are Singapore newspapers not allowed to be distributed in Malaysia? >>Kiasu or what? > >Yes, this is an interesting question. But is it true ? >I can order The Times from UK and read it one or two days later >but can I order the Singapore Straits Times ? > > Yes it is. Neither can the Malaysian newspapers be distributed in Singapore. It has to do with the legislation extant at the time of separation, when the old practice of licence in one country extended to the other, lapsed, though not the mentalities of the bureaucrats. So, just like Pakistani newspapers are not distributed in India and vice versa, Singapore newspapers are not allowed into Malaysia, and vice versa. MGG ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sun Nov 23 10:33:42 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id KAA09265 for apple-outgoing; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:33:42 +0900 (JST) Received: from armstrong.apic.net (armstrong.apic.net [203.22.101.2]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id KAA09259 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:33:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from boss.apic.net (boss.apic.net [203.22.102.40]) by armstrong.apic.net (8.8.6/APIC-2.1) with SMTP id MAA19808; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:36:56 +1100 (EST) X-Org: The Asia Pacific Internet Company Pty. Ltd. X-URL: http://www.apic.net/ Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971123123121.00b7d3e0@mail.apic.net> X-Sender: bala@mail.apic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:31:21 +1100 To: Ang Peng Hwa From: Bala Pillai Subject: Re: Malaysia to monitor Net news Cc: "'APPLe'" , clift@freenet.msp.mn.us In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk At 04:08 PM 11/21/97 +0800, Ang Peng Hwa wrote: >There is a 19 November story from a Malaysian morning paper, The Star, >about Malaysia reading *all foreign reports about the country* and >discussing negative reports at the following site: > >http://www.jaring.my/~star/wednesday/19m1sc.html > >Only part of the report is extracted for copyright reasons. > >Perhaps someone (Bala?) would care to comment because this action goes >against the trend of most, if not all, countries to back off on Internet >content regulation. Also, are there implications for the Malaysian >Multimedia Super Corridor? Or would reports from it would be deemed >local and not subject to such screening and discussion? Is there more >than meets the eye? Peng Hwa, In here, we have the classical age-old problem in societies, in trying to have micro-policy be consistent with macro-policy. That is, the bottom line is macro-policy is not a neat summation of micro-policies in most societies (the US' declaratory human rights stance and the aggregate of its foreign policy practices, is an example). In normal good times there will be greater convergence between aggregate micro-policy and macro-policy. Alternatively, convergence is thrown into the bin in less normal times - i.e. micro-policy goes against macro-policy. I don't think any of us here are strangers to the bundle of contradictions that each of us individually are, and societies and policy mixes are no different. The micro situation in Malaysia is such that schools of thought vary in describing the state of affairs from " as bad as Tulipmania 1637 (i.e. worse than the 30's depression)" to "there ain't no serious problem". The magnitude of divergence in assessment of a given state-of-affairs, is itself an indicator of how much contradiction there will be between micro rules and macro policies at given times. So what's the bottom line with the press report? A micro-heavy stance would suggest that Internet discussion be severely constricted. A macro-heavy stance would suggest doing nothing. An in-between stance would suggest "let's keep threatening the buggers and hope they shut up" or "let's put them in for something else". Which mix of contradictions will or will not Malaysia take? I don't know. Yes, it is a test of the MSC Bill of Guarantees cheers../bala bala@apic.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- bala pillai bala@apic.net * For quick info on AIM send blank founder * asian internet marketing (aim) cybercommunity ph: +61 2 9419 5333 fax: +61 2 9419 5155 where pan-asian internet marketing, media and sales pioneers mingle. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Mon Nov 24 08:48:52 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id IAA14782 for apple-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:48:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from gabriela.ph.net ([165.220.3.1] (may be forged)) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA14774 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:48:35 +0900 (JST) Received: from server.hq.ph.net (server.hq.ph.net [165.220.1.97]) by gabriela.ph.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA09231; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:50:03 +0800 (GMT+0800) Received: from localhost (hcadiz@localhost) by server.hq.ph.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA11422; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:52:23 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:52:22 -0800 (GMT+8) From: "Horacio T. Cadiz" To: Ang Peng Hwa cc: "''APPLe' '" Subject: RE: Malaysia to monitor Net news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Ang Peng Hwa wrote: > Please do not take what I write below as patronising because there are > serious points. Not at all. > I take it that this is your line of understanding: > 1. The reports about Malaysia are on the Internet. Not only the net but on the press. > 2. They come from outside Malaysia. They come from everywhere. > 3. The Internet "cannot" be censored. Ultimately it can not but attempts to do so have resulted in dire consequences for the people who bore the brunt of the attempts. > 4. And the powers that be are only monitoring and discussing the > reports. Yes. > 5. As content is not directly affected, there is no content regulation. Yes. > > The breakdown in syllogism is in Point 2. The reports on the Internet > must have a domestic source. By concentrating on the domestic source, > the information flows to the outside world is affected and the > information that is fed back is therefor affected. Yes. Feedback will indeed be affected if the source is suppressed. > Content regulation need not always be directly on content. While > teaching my media law course, I used to show my students a list of > things that governments have deployed to censor journalists. This can > range from the extremely crude but highly effective weapon of murder and > sending a bullet to more sophisticated methods such as "monitoring" > reports to sending stoolies to tail journalists. Agreed. > Monitoring and discussing reports, and apparently only negative reports, > are a form of content regulation because the aim is to get the > journalist to tone down on negative reporting. The evidence, even from > the USA, is that such methods can be highly effective. I would posit that the aim of monitoring negative reports is to counter such reports. This may be done by doing some of the following: showing the erroneous assumptions of the report, showing the bias of the reporter, showing that it is an isolated case, showing that the government is accepting the report and is working on solving it, etc. Isn't this what PR firms do? I would also suggest that monitoring negative press reports and letting the world know that it is being monitored can have positive effects. It tells the reporters that their reports are hitting the target, are being recognized, and the source of the problem (e.g. illegal purchases, unwise public spending, etc) will be investigated and corrected. Now, how the government counters the negative press is another matter. I maintain that monitoring the negative reports, per se, is not wrong. Then again, based on your knowledge of Malaysia, if the "monitoring negative reports == repression and suppression" then monitoring negative reports is bad and should indeed raise an alarm. **************************************************************** * Horacio T. Cadiz hcadiz@ph.net www.ph.net/~hcadiz * * Philippine Network Foundation, Inc (PFI) * * finger hcadiz@gabriela.ph.net for PGP key * *--------------------------------------------------------------* * "Carpe per diem!" "Seize the paycheck!" * **************************************************************** ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Nov 27 23:36:37 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id XAA22801 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 23:36:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from zinc.singnet.com.sg (zinc.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.31]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA22796 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 23:36:29 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from isjfvzjl (ts900-4227.singnet.com.sg [165.21.154.47]) by zinc.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13497 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:39:10 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 97 22:40:49 Subject: Oops-forgot the doc To: apple@apnic.net X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA --isjfvzjl:880641669:700:-69897:9961-- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Thu Nov 27 23:35:51 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id XAA22791 for apple-outgoing; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 23:35:51 +0900 (JST) Received: from copper.singnet.com.sg (copper.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA22785 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 23:35:45 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from isjfvzjl (ts900-4227.singnet.com.sg [165.21.154.47]) by copper.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29366 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:38:45 +0800 (SGT) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 97 22:39:43 Subject: need your input To: apple@apnic.net X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Dear Brownlee, I am putting together a draft proposal on the future of APPLe.I will greatly appreciate any input you can give. Please help. Need your wise counsel. Regards, Laina RG ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Nov 28 20:03:06 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id UAA10416 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 20:03:06 +0900 (JST) Received: from geocities.com (mail2.geocities.com [209.1.224.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id UAA10411 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 20:03:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from yapcs-r2 (yapcs-r2.iscs.nus.sg [137.132.85.230]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA27821; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:06:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <347EA53B.39CD8F56@geocities.com> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 19:04:27 +0800 From: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Organization: VLSM-TJT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.30 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apple@apnic.net Subject: Comments regarding the APPLe Proposal (I) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk First of all: congratulations, thumbs up, and campa cola for *attaching* a genre in a civilized M$Word format! As corporal Arthur McDouglas once wrote: "Senior citizen (a.k.a. old boys) will never die, they will be just stranded away" Nonetheless, I have *two* big questions regarding the APPLe list: 1. How to discourage senior citizen from outer space for quarreling in this list? 2. How to encourage more native voices for any (even very simple) issues without getting patronized from senior citizens ? My small 100 rupiahs (after devaluation) comments regarding the proposal itself will be sent in a separated mail. tabe, -- Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim - CEO VLSM-TJT - http://www.tjt.or.id/rms46 -------- Nobody beats MIDAS ? Nobody ? --------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Nov 28 21:52:05 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id VAA12294 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 21:52:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from iisc.ernet.in (mail-relay.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.64.3]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA12289 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 21:50:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from ece.iisc.ernet.in by iisc.ernet.in (ERNET-IISc/SMI-4.1) id SAA02256; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 18:22:25 +0530 Received: by ece.iisc.ernet.in (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01095; Fri, 28 Nov 97 18:22:25+0530 From: gopi@ece.iisc.ernet.in (Gopi K Garge) Message-Id: <9711281252.AA01095@ece.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: Comments regarding the APPLe Proposal (I) To: rms46@geocities.com (Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 97 18:22:24 GMT+5:30 Cc: apple@apnic.net In-Reply-To: <347EA53B.39CD8F56@geocities.com>; from "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" at Nov 28, 97 7:04 pm Phone: 91 80 334 0855 Request-Delivery-Notification: TRUE X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk RMSI, Valid questions, but I think it was dealt with quite appropriately, the last time. It did take time to get grips and moderate, but moderated it was. Patronizing may be required, though .. ;-) --Gopi Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim sez: > First of all: congratulations, thumbs up, and campa cola > for *attaching* a genre in a civilized M$Word format! > As corporal Arthur McDouglas once wrote: > "Senior citizen (a.k.a. old boys) will never die, > they will be just stranded away" > Nonetheless, I have *two* big questions regarding the > APPLe list: > 1. How to discourage senior citizen from outer space for > quarreling in this list? > 2. How to encourage more native voices for any (even > very simple) issues without getting patronized from > senior citizens ? > My small 100 rupiahs (after devaluation) comments > regarding the proposal itself will be sent in a > separated mail. > tabe, > -- > Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim - CEO VLSM-TJT - http://www.tjt.or.id/rms46 > -------- Nobody beats MIDAS ? Nobody ? --------------------------- > ___________________________________________________________________________ > | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | > | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Fri Nov 28 23:44:30 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id XAA12662 for apple-outgoing; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 23:44:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from iron.singnet.com.sg (iron.singnet.com.sg [165.21.7.29]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA12657 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 23:44:25 +0900 (JST) From: laina@singnet.com.sg Received: from isjfvzjl (ts900-3101.singnet.com.sg [165.21.151.53]) by iron.singnet.com.sg (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17144; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 22:47:21 +0800 (SGT) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 97 22:34:16 Subject: ITU Subregional meeting in Laos To: anr-talk@anr.org, apple@apnic.net X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon 5.0, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Just for your information: I was recently (22-25th November) invited by the International Telecommunications Union to present a day's tutorial on an "Introduction to the Internet" and "Internet Law and Policy issues". The meeting included Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia and is the fourth in the series of Sub-regional cooperation meetings that ITU has held. The meeting was very successful indeed and was attended by very high level participants. They included the Minister and Vice-Minister of Laos Ministry of Communications, etc, the Director General of Laos Telecom,the UnderSecretary for Telecommunications, and Camnet, and from Vietnam DG of VNPT,etc. The meeting was held in Luangbrabang in Laos, and there was three days of discussion and tutorials on issues ranging from Trade in Telecommunications to the Internet. All these three countries are at very interesting junctures with the Internet. Cambodia was the furthest along with their two ISs, one Camnet between MPTC and IDRC and the other BigPOnd between Telstra and MPTC. Vietnam has just passed its new Internet regulations and has decided that VNPT will be the IAP. The have announced 4 new ISP (resellers) on the 19th November, which they call Internet day in Vietnam. Everything will be officially launched on 1st December this year. Laos, was still waiting to pass new legislation and is working with an inter-Ministerial committee. They are also reviewing proposals and are looking for new proposals to launch Internet in Laos officially. Content regulation and control will be key to them. In short, there was great cooperation between the countries and the ITU did a tremendous job of getting them to share information and experiennces. This is indeed encouraging, given their past histories. Papers presented were well prepared and illuminating. I have been greatly enriched by this experience and am very grateful for ITU for having invited me to be a speaker. The warmth and hospitality showered upon me by the Laos people, will never be forgotten. The other countries were equally warm and respectful to me. This trip to Laos was definitely a highlight of this year for me and I certainly hope not the last trip to this wonderful region of Asia. Regards, Laina RG ------------------------------------- Name: Laina Raveendran Greene E-mail: laina@singnet.com.sg Date: 11/28/97 Time: 10:34:16 PM This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sat Nov 29 11:36:44 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id LAA14865 for apple-outgoing; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:36:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from geocities.com (mail4.geocities.com [209.1.224.24]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA14860 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:36:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from yapcs-r2 (yapcs-r2.iscs.nus.sg [137.132.85.230]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA29700; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 18:39:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <347F7FF2.8F006E4@geocities.com> Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 10:37:38 +0800 From: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Organization: VLSM-TJT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.30 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gopi K Garge CC: apple@apnic.net Subject: Re: Comments regarding the APPLe Proposal (I) References: <9711281252.AA01095@ece.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Gopi K Garge wrote: > Valid questions, but I think it was dealt with quite appropriately, > the last time. It did take time to get grips and moderate, but > moderated it was. > Yes, however, too less "native" voices ... :-( tabe, -- Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim - CEO VLSM-TJT - http://www.tjt.or.id/rms46 -------- Nobody beats MIDAS ? Nobody ? --------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sat Nov 29 21:07:23 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id VAA17751 for apple-outgoing; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:07:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from sigma.itu.ch (sigma.itu.ch [156.106.128.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id VAA17746 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:07:17 +0900 (JST) Received: from ties.itu.ch (ties.itu.ch) by ITU.CH (PMDF V5.0-6 #16074) id <01IQL053UI3GAC2YD1@ITU.CH>; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:10:06 +0200 Received: from bob.itu.ch (usr0-06.itu.ch [156.106.192.159]) by ties.itu.ch (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13175; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:09:40 +0100 (MET) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:11:28 +0100 From: Robert Shaw Subject: gTLD-MoU News (November 29, 1997) To: gtld-news@gtld-mou.org Message-id: <34801480.707F780E@itu.int> Organization: ITU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3475B8DA.9E3E82BF@itu.int> Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk gTLD-MoU News (November 29, 1997) Special note: If you are receiving this news through subscription to either the gtld-announce@gtld-mou.org or gtld-discuss@gtld-mou.org mailing lists, unsubscription information is available at http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/maillist.htm The following updates have been posted on the gTLD-MoU web site at http://www.gtld-mou.org. As always, news announcements relating to the gTLD-MoU can be found at http://www.gtld-mou.org/index.html#news. November 27, 1997: Indexed lists of submissions received for the following Request for Comments are now available: * index for submissions made to Notice-97-03 (open until December 5, 1997) see http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/sub-97-03.htm * index for submissions made to Notice-97-02 see http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/sub-97-02.htm * index for submissions made to Notice-97-01 see http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/sub-97-02.htm Submissions made in binary formats have been converted to HTML to support viewing in a web browser. November 27, 1997: Following the appointment of two representatives from the Council of Registrars (CORE) on November 25, 1997, and in accordance with Article 6h of the gTLD-MoU, the interim Policy Oversight (iPOC) has been dissolved and is now the Policy Oversight Committee (POC). November 25, 1997: The Council of Registrars (CORE) has announced its appointees to the gTLD-MoU Policy Oversight Committee. The appointees are Alan Hanson (Chairman of CORE) and Amadeu Abril i Abril. Robert -- Robert Shaw (shaw@itu.int) Advisor, Global Information Infrastructure International Telecommunication Union (http://www.itu.int) Place des Nations, 1211 Geneva 20, Switzerland ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sat Nov 29 21:23:48 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id VAA17805 for apple-outgoing; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:23:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from sigma.itu.ch (sigma.itu.ch [156.106.128.30]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with ESMTP id VAA17800 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:23:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from ties.itu.ch (ties.itu.ch) by ITU.CH (PMDF V5.0-6 #16074) id <01IQL0PJ81XCAC2YD1@ITU.CH>; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:26:34 +0200 Received: from bob.itu.ch (usr0-05.itu.ch [156.106.192.158]) by ties.itu.ch (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13585; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:26:09 +0100 (MET) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:28:29 +0100 From: Robert Shaw Subject: gTLD-MoU News (November 29, 1997) - correction To: gtld-news@gtld-mou.org Message-id: <3480187D.4F5959C5@itu.int> Organization: ITU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3475B8DA.9E3E82BF@itu.int> Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk gTLD-MoU News (November 29, 1997) Note the following correction to gTLD-MoU News (November 29, 1997). * index for submissions made to Notice-97-01 see http://www.gtld-mou.org/docs/sub-97-01.htm Robert -- Robert Shaw (shaw@itu.int) Advisor, Global Information Infrastructure International Telecommunication Union (http://www.itu.int) Place des Nations, 1211 Geneva 20, Switzerland ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-apple Sun Nov 30 13:03:17 1997 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.7/8.7.1) id NAA20095 for apple-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:03:17 +0900 (JST) Received: from iisc.ernet.in (iisc.ernet.in [144.16.64.3]) by teckla.apnic.net (8.8.6/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA20089 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:01:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from ece.iisc.ernet.in by iisc.ernet.in (ERNET-IISc/SMI-4.1) id JAA25677; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 09:34:21 +0530 Received: by ece.iisc.ernet.in (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19987; Sun, 30 Nov 97 09:34:21+0530 From: gopi@ece.iisc.ernet.in (Gopi K Garge) Message-Id: <9711300404.AA19987@ece.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: Comments regarding the APPLe Proposal (I) To: rms46@geocities.com (Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 9:34:21 GMT+5:30 Cc: apple@apnic.net In-Reply-To: <347F7FF2.8F006E4@geocities.com>; from "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" at Nov 29, 97 10:37 am Phone: 91 80 334 0855 Request-Delivery-Notification: TRUE X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-apple@apnic.net Precedence: bulk Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim sez: > Gopi K Garge wrote: > > Valid questions, but I think it was dealt with quite appropriately, > > the last time. It did take time to get grips and moderate, but > > moderated it was. > > > Yes, however, too less "native" voices ... :-( Yes, indeed ! --Gopi ___________________________________________________________________________ | To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe" to apple-request@apnic.net | | Submissions only allowed from the email address you are subscribed with | --------------------------------------------------------------------------