From owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Tue Feb 13 17:04:22 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA112201; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:04:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from mail.nic.or.kr (mail.nic.or.kr [202.30.50.115]) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA112196 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:04:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from nystyle ([203.255.208.131]) by mail.nic.or.kr (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f1D73dO13045 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:03:42 +0900 (KST) Message-ID: <001501c0958a$e473e580$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMy9wrnO?= To: Subject: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:02:10 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Precedence: bulk Dear All APNIC NIR Members. As a chair of NIR Meeting, I announce the 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting as following. Comments are welcome. See you all at APRICOT 2000. Thank you ---------------------- Announcement ---------------------------------------- Title : 3rd APNIC NIR member meeting Date : Tuesday 27 February during the BOF in the evening. Venue : TBA Following is the draft Agenda for NIR meeting. ==================================================================== DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT ==================================================================== 1. Welcome 2. Agenda Bashing 3. review of Minutes from last meeting 4. status of open actions - Criteria for establishment of new NIRs paper + this should be prepared by APNIC. or just draft doc itself will be okay - assessment of the "despatch a staff" internship to APNIC in practice what about APJII and APNIC. - Trial Procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address space + Check just any further progress - The probles of APNIC membership fee and number of vote + APNIC report about EC decision and we need more discuss about future Driving plan. + How about JPNIC? Don't you have any idea about this?? no presentation? 5. Proposal "Request Evaluation by APNIC" / George Kuo(APNIC) 6. Other Working items - will be collect from other NIR. 6. elect new NIR chair 7. Future Plan include Next NIR Meeting 8. Close ==================================================================== DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT ==================================================================== -------------- Minutes of 2nd NIR Meeting ----------------------- 24/10/00, 17:30#19:30 Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane Brisbane, Australia Present APJII : Sanjaya, Irvan Nasrun CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai APNIC : Paul Wilson, Anne Lord, George Kuo Agenda 1. Assessment of the 'dispatch a staff' internship to APNIC (KRNIC) KRNIC It was quite successful and helpful for KRNIC. APJII We have a plan to dispatch Irvan Nasrun sooner or later. JPNIC We have the plan and the budget for dispatching a staff, but actually we have not. APNIC It was also good for us to know the status of KRNIC through the dispatch. But there was some misunderstanding about APNIC, we have a flat decision making system. 2. The trial procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address space (KRNIC) 3. PA Assignments (APNIC) Anne Lord also presented in Address Policy SIG -------------- Minutes of Special NIR Meeting ------------------------- 25/10/00, 08:00#09:30 Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane Brisbane, Australia Attendees APJII : Sanjaya CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani, Naomasa Murayama TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai APNIC Secretariat : Paul Wilson APNIC EC : Geoff Huston, Xing Li Agenda : Problems of APNIC Membership Fee and the Number of Votes by Seung-Min Lee KRNIC Seung-Min Lee from KRNIC presented the proposal to re-consider the voting structure in proportion with the fees that NIRs are paying to APNIC. Although NIRs consist of several organizations, they are considered as one organization. As a result, the interest of the members in their country is not reflected well in APNIC operation as they would have if they were individual APNIC members.. Geoff Huston Argued that the number of votes per county listed in Seung-Min's presentation is not the actual number of votes casted per country as many members don't attend the AMM to vote, and currently, APNIC makes a point about voting with the member's presence. Furthermore, policy making is based on consensus and is not based on the number of votes, but the willingness to participate. From this respect, NIRs have a strong say. Sanjaya(APJII) It is understood that the actual practice and the formal structure is different, but it is desirable that they match. What would be the disadvantage if they implement Seung-Min's proposal? Paul Wison(APNIC) APNIC gains consensus from both big and small organizations. If APNIC implements the proposal, small organization would have a smaller say, and may seek outside APNIC to have their voice heard. Seung-Min Lee If small ISPs in Korea don't get to reflect their voice, NIR has no role as their representative. Maruyama(JPNIC) -NIRs work on behalf of APNIC -many small members are not interested in policy making and have become members to receive the address space. Therefore, separating the membership and allocation would solve the problem. Paul Wison(APNIC) APNIC is considering the membership without receiving the address space, so it is a good consideration to make. Maruyama(JPNIC) NIRs do play a big role in both funding and policy making. Paul Wilson(APNIC) For taxation reason, APNIC needs to retain the membership system to allocate addresses Furthermore, having a fixed and variable fee is quite common, and APNIC does not consider it as a double pay. Seung-Min Lee(KRNIC) If ISP confederations pay per address, then other ISPs must also pay per address for the consistency. Otherwise, all of KRNIC members would go to APNIC. If NIRs are representatives of ISPs in their country, they should receive the number of votes that reflects that representation. Paul Wilson(APNIC) Participation is important and proxies are not desirable. If proxies are allowed, there may be cases where it is voted in favor of majority, and the opinion of the minorities would not be reflected. To make the representation truly effective, the members who want to have a voice should attend the meeting instead of having proxies, and the votes should be counted on the basis on the number of the NIR members who attended the meeting. It may be better to discuss voting and financing as separate issues. Paul Wilson will left the meeting so that NIRs can make a discussion among themselves more openly. WS Chen(TWNIC) Expressed concerns on connecting the number of votes with the fee paid by NIRs. Xing Li (EC) We should look at things in what is the best in the longer term and the consequences of implementing this would be. WH Zhang(CNNIC) Would like to take more time for discussion before reaching a conclusion. Sanjaya(APJII) It may be a good idea to have a model where both the population and the countries are represented separately. Conclusion More discussions to be made on NIR mailing list. ---------------------------------------------------------- Seung-Min Lee/Manager Policy Development and Statistic Research Division Korea Network Information Center Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr ---------------------------------------------------------- From owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Fri Feb 16 19:33:51 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA107378; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:33:50 +1000 (EST) Received: from mail.nic.or.kr (mail.nic.or.kr [202.30.50.115]) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA107373 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:33:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from nystyle ([203.255.208.131]) by mail.nic.or.kr (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f1G9X7D11272; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:33:07 +0900 (KST) Message-ID: <004901c097fb$469db520$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMy9wrnO?= To: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMy9wrnO?= , Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:31:44 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hello Everyone. Since I sent out following Announcement, I have not receive any mail from NIR members. I must check the list of attendee. Therefore, all NIR members, please notify how many persons and who will attend meeting ASAP. Thank you ---------------------------------------------------------- Seung-Min Lee/Manager Policy Development and Statistic Research Division Korea Network Information Center Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr ---------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: 檜蝓團 To: Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 4:02 PM Subject: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > Dear All APNIC NIR Members. > As a chair of NIR Meeting, > I announce the 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting as following. > > Comments are welcome. > > See you all at APRICOT 2000. > > Thank you > ---------------------- Announcement ---------------------------------------- > > Title : 3rd APNIC NIR member meeting > Date : Tuesday 27 February during the BOF in the evening. > Venue : TBA > > Following is the draft Agenda for NIR meeting. > > ==================================================================== > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > ==================================================================== > 1. Welcome > > 2. Agenda Bashing > > 3. review of Minutes from last meeting > > 4. status of open actions > > - Criteria for establishment of new NIRs paper > + this should be prepared by APNIC. or just draft doc itself will be > okay > > - assessment of the "despatch a staff" internship to APNIC in practice > what about APJII and APNIC. > > - Trial Procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address space > + Check just any further progress > > - The probles of APNIC membership fee and number of vote > + APNIC report about EC decision and we need more discuss about future > Driving plan. > + How about JPNIC? Don't you have any idea about this?? no > presentation? > > 5. Proposal "Request Evaluation by APNIC" / George Kuo(APNIC) > > 6. Other Working items > - will be collect from other NIR. > > 6. elect new NIR chair > > 7. Future Plan include Next NIR Meeting > > 8. Close > ==================================================================== > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > ==================================================================== > > > -------------- Minutes of 2nd NIR Meeting ----------------------- > > 24/10/00, 17:30#19:30 > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > Brisbane, Australia > > Present > APJII : Sanjaya, Irvan Nasrun > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > APNIC : Paul Wilson, Anne Lord, George Kuo > > Agenda > 1. Assessment of the 'dispatch a staff' internship to APNIC (KRNIC) > > KRNIC > It was quite successful and helpful for KRNIC. > > APJII > We have a plan to dispatch Irvan Nasrun sooner or later. > > JPNIC > We have the plan and the budget for dispatching a staff, but actually we > have not. > > APNIC > It was also good for us to know the status of KRNIC through the dispatch. > But there was some misunderstanding about APNIC, we have a flat decision > making system. > > 2. The trial procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address space > (KRNIC) > > 3. PA Assignments (APNIC) Anne Lord > also presented in Address Policy SIG > > > -------------- Minutes of Special NIR Meeting ------------------------- > > 25/10/00, 08:00#09:30 > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > Brisbane, Australia > > Attendees > APJII : Sanjaya > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani, Naomasa Murayama > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > APNIC Secretariat : Paul Wilson > APNIC EC : Geoff Huston, Xing Li > > Agenda : > Problems of APNIC Membership Fee and the Number of Votes by Seung-Min Lee > KRNIC > > Seung-Min Lee from KRNIC presented the proposal to re-consider the voting > structure in proportion with the fees that NIRs are paying to APNIC. > Although NIRs consist of several organizations, they are considered as one > organization. As a result, the interest of the members in their country is > not reflected well in APNIC operation as they would have if they were > individual APNIC members.. > > Geoff Huston > Argued that the number of votes per county listed in Seung-Min's > presentation is not the actual number of votes casted per country as many > members don't attend the AMM to vote, and currently, APNIC makes a point > about voting with the member's presence. > > Furthermore, policy making is based on consensus and is not based on the > number of votes, but the willingness to participate. From this respect, NIRs > have a strong say. > > Sanjaya(APJII) > It is understood that the actual practice and the formal structure is > different, but it is desirable that they match. What would be the > disadvantage if they implement Seung-Min's proposal? > > Paul Wison(APNIC) > APNIC gains consensus from both big and small organizations. If APNIC > implements the proposal, small organization would have a smaller say, and > may seek outside APNIC to have their voice heard. > > Seung-Min Lee > If small ISPs in Korea don't get to reflect their voice, NIR has no role as > their representative. > > Maruyama(JPNIC) > -NIRs work on behalf of APNIC > -many small members are not interested in policy making and have become > members to receive the address space. Therefore, separating the > membership and allocation would solve the problem. > > Paul Wison(APNIC) > APNIC is considering the membership without receiving the address space, so > it is a good consideration to make. > > Maruyama(JPNIC) > NIRs do play a big role in both funding and policy making. > > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > For taxation reason, APNIC needs to retain the membership system to allocate > addresses > Furthermore, having a fixed and variable fee is quite common, and APNIC does > not consider it as a double pay. > > Seung-Min Lee(KRNIC) > If ISP confederations pay per address, then other ISPs must also pay per > address for the consistency. Otherwise, all of KRNIC members would go to > APNIC. If NIRs are representatives of ISPs in their country, they should > receive the number of votes that reflects that representation. > > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > Participation is important and proxies are not desirable. If proxies are > allowed, there may be cases where it is voted in favor of majority, and the > opinion of the minorities would not be reflected. To make the > representation truly effective, the members who want to have a voice should > attend the meeting instead of having proxies, and the votes should be > counted on the basis on the number of the NIR members who attended the > meeting. > > It may be better to discuss voting and financing as separate issues. > > Paul Wilson will left the meeting so that NIRs can make a discussion among > themselves more openly. > > WS Chen(TWNIC) > Expressed concerns on connecting the number of votes with the fee paid by > NIRs. > > Xing Li (EC) > We should look at things in what is the best in the longer term and the > consequences of implementing this would be. > > WH Zhang(CNNIC) > Would like to take more time for discussion before reaching a conclusion. > > Sanjaya(APJII) > It may be a good idea to have a model where both the population and the > countries are represented separately. > > Conclusion > More discussions to be made on NIR mailing list. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > Korea Network Information Center > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > ---------------------------------------------------------- > From owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Fri Feb 16 21:53:10 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA127471; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:53:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from guardian.apnic.net (guardian.apnic.net [203.37.255.100]) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA127448 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:53:08 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by guardian.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA19148 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:53:05 +1000 (EST) Received: from hadrian.staff.apnic.net(192.168.1.1) by int-gw.staff.apnic.net via smap (V2.1) id xmaa19144; Fri, 16 Feb 01 21:52:39 +1000 Received: from localhost (kyoko@localhost) by hadrian.staff.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05033; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:52:37 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:52:37 +1000 (EST) From: Kyoko Day X-Sender: kyoko@hadrian To: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMy9wrnO?= cc: nir-discuss@apnic.net Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL In-Reply-To: <004901c097fb$469db520$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by ns.apnic.net id VAA127449 Sender: owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Precedence: bulk In addition to what Seung Min requested below, please let us know if you have any presentation material that needs to be printed. APNIC Secretariat will prepare handout for this session including a list of agenda. We would appreciate if you could email your presentation or handout material to meeting@apnic.net as soon as possible. Thanks. Regards, Kyoko Day + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Kyoko Day Business Manager Tel: +61-7-3367-0490 Asia Pacific Network Information Centre (APNIC) Ltd Fax: +61-7-3367-0482 Level 1, 33 Park Road, PO Box 2131, Milton, QLD 4064, Australia + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, [ks_c_5601-1987] 檜蝓團 wrote: > Hello Everyone. > > Since I sent out following Announcement, I have not receive any mail > from NIR members. > > I must check the list of attendee. > > Therefore, all NIR members, please notify how many persons and who > will attend meeting ASAP. > > Thank you > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > Korea Network Information Center > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: 檜蝓團 > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 4:02 PM > Subject: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > > > > Dear All APNIC NIR Members. > > As a chair of NIR Meeting, > > I announce the 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting as following. > > > > Comments are welcome. > > > > See you all at APRICOT 2000. > > > > Thank you > > ---------------------- > Announcement ---------------------------------------- > > > > Title : 3rd APNIC NIR member meeting > > Date : Tuesday 27 February during the BOF in the evening. > > Venue : TBA > > > > Following is the draft Agenda for NIR meeting. > > > > ==================================================================== > > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > > ==================================================================== > > 1. Welcome > > > > 2. Agenda Bashing > > > > 3. review of Minutes from last meeting > > > > 4. status of open actions > > > > - Criteria for establishment of new NIRs paper > > + this should be prepared by APNIC. or just draft doc itself will be > > okay > > > > - assessment of the "despatch a staff" internship to APNIC in practice > > what about APJII and APNIC. > > > > - Trial Procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address space > > + Check just any further progress > > > > - The probles of APNIC membership fee and number of vote > > + APNIC report about EC decision and we need more discuss about > future > > Driving plan. > > + How about JPNIC? Don't you have any idea about this?? no > > presentation? > > > > 5. Proposal "Request Evaluation by APNIC" / George Kuo(APNIC) > > > > 6. Other Working items > > - will be collect from other NIR. > > > > 6. elect new NIR chair > > > > 7. Future Plan include Next NIR Meeting > > > > 8. Close > > ==================================================================== > > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > > ==================================================================== > > > > > > -------------- Minutes of 2nd NIR Meeting ----------------------- > > > > 24/10/00, 17:30#19:30 > > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > > Brisbane, Australia > > > > Present > > APJII : Sanjaya, Irvan Nasrun > > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani > > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > > APNIC : Paul Wilson, Anne Lord, George Kuo > > > > Agenda > > 1. Assessment of the 'dispatch a staff' internship to APNIC (KRNIC) > > > > KRNIC > > It was quite successful and helpful for KRNIC. > > > > APJII > > We have a plan to dispatch Irvan Nasrun sooner or later. > > > > JPNIC > > We have the plan and the budget for dispatching a staff, but actually we > > have not. > > > > APNIC > > It was also good for us to know the status of KRNIC through the dispatch. > > But there was some misunderstanding about APNIC, we have a flat > decision > > making system. > > > > 2. The trial procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address > space > > (KRNIC) > > > > 3. PA Assignments (APNIC) Anne Lord > > also presented in Address Policy SIG > > > > > > -------------- Minutes of Special NIR Meeting ------------------------- > > > > 25/10/00, 08:00#09:30 > > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > > Brisbane, Australia > > > > Attendees > > APJII : Sanjaya > > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani, Naomasa Murayama > > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > > APNIC Secretariat : Paul Wilson > > APNIC EC : Geoff Huston, Xing Li > > > > Agenda : > > Problems of APNIC Membership Fee and the Number of Votes by Seung-Min Lee > > KRNIC > > > > Seung-Min Lee from KRNIC presented the proposal to re-consider the voting > > structure in proportion with the fees that NIRs are paying to APNIC. > > Although NIRs consist of several organizations, they are considered as one > > organization. As a result, the interest of the members in their country is > > not reflected well in APNIC operation as they would have if they were > > individual APNIC members.. > > > > Geoff Huston > > Argued that the number of votes per county listed in Seung-Min's > > presentation is not the actual number of votes casted per country as many > > members don't attend the AMM to vote, and currently, APNIC makes a point > > about voting with the member's presence. > > > > Furthermore, policy making is based on consensus and is not based on the > > number of votes, but the willingness to participate. From this respect, > NIRs > > have a strong say. > > > > Sanjaya(APJII) > > It is understood that the actual practice and the formal structure is > > different, but it is desirable that they match. What would be the > > disadvantage if they implement Seung-Min's proposal? > > > > Paul Wison(APNIC) > > APNIC gains consensus from both big and small organizations. If APNIC > > implements the proposal, small organization would have a smaller say, and > > may seek outside APNIC to have their voice heard. > > > > Seung-Min Lee > > If small ISPs in Korea don't get to reflect their voice, NIR has no role > as > > their representative. > > > > Maruyama(JPNIC) > > -NIRs work on behalf of APNIC > > -many small members are not interested in policy making and have become > > members to receive the address space. Therefore, separating the > > membership and allocation would solve the problem. > > > > Paul Wison(APNIC) > > APNIC is considering the membership without receiving the address space, > so > > it is a good consideration to make. > > > > Maruyama(JPNIC) > > NIRs do play a big role in both funding and policy making. > > > > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > > For taxation reason, APNIC needs to retain the membership system to > allocate > > addresses > > Furthermore, having a fixed and variable fee is quite common, and APNIC > does > > not consider it as a double pay. > > > > Seung-Min Lee(KRNIC) > > If ISP confederations pay per address, then other ISPs must also pay per > > address for the consistency. Otherwise, all of KRNIC members would go to > > APNIC. If NIRs are representatives of ISPs in their country, they should > > receive the number of votes that reflects that representation. > > > > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > > Participation is important and proxies are not desirable. If proxies are > > allowed, there may be cases where it is voted in favor of majority, and > the > > opinion of the minorities would not be reflected. To make the > > representation truly effective, the members who want to have a voice > should > > attend the meeting instead of having proxies, and the votes should be > > counted on the basis on the number of the NIR members who attended the > > meeting. > > > > It may be better to discuss voting and financing as separate issues. > > > > Paul Wilson will left the meeting so that NIRs can make a discussion among > > themselves more openly. > > > > WS Chen(TWNIC) > > Expressed concerns on connecting the number of votes with the fee paid by > > NIRs. > > > > Xing Li (EC) > > We should look at things in what is the best in the longer term and the > > consequences of implementing this would be. > > > > WH Zhang(CNNIC) > > Would like to take more time for discussion before reaching a conclusion. > > > > Sanjaya(APJII) > > It may be a good idea to have a model where both the population and the > > countries are represented separately. > > > > Conclusion > > More discussions to be made on NIR mailing list. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > > Korea Network Information Center > > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > From owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Sun Feb 18 17:59:14 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA95988; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:59:14 +1000 (EST) Received: from pier.cnnic.net.cn ([159.226.6.42]) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA95978 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:59:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from cnnic.net.cn ([159.226.6.169]) by pier.cnnic.net.cn (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA11064; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:59:07 +0800 Message-ID: <3A8F7F7F.50389AD1@cnnic.net.cn> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:53:35 +0800 From: zwh@pier.cnnic.net.cn (zwh) Reply-To: zwh@cnnic.net.cn Organization: CNNIC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: zh-CN,en,zh,zh-TW MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?gb2312?B?wMy9wrnO?= CC: nir-discuss@apnic.net Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL References: <004901c097fb$469db520$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Precedence: bulk hello Everyone: CNNICㄩ Qian Hualin, Wei Mao, Wenhui Zhang and Yan Luo will attend the meeting. See you wenhui CNNNIC 檜蝓團 wrote: > Hello Everyone. > > Since I sent out following Announcement, I have not receive any mail > from NIR members. > > I must check the list of attendee. > > Therefore, all NIR members, please notify how many persons and who > will attend meeting ASAP. > > Thank you > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > Korea Network Information Center > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: 檜蝓團 > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 4:02 PM > Subject: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > > > Dear All APNIC NIR Members. > > As a chair of NIR Meeting, > > I announce the 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting as following. > > > > Comments are welcome. > > > > See you all at APRICOT 2000. > > > > Thank you > > ---------------------- > Announcement ---------------------------------------- > > > > Title : 3rd APNIC NIR member meeting > > Date : Tuesday 27 February during the BOF in the evening. > > Venue : TBA > > > > Following is the draft Agenda for NIR meeting. > > > > ==================================================================== > > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > > ==================================================================== > > 1. Welcome > > > > 2. Agenda Bashing > > > > 3. review of Minutes from last meeting > > > > 4. status of open actions > > > > - Criteria for establishment of new NIRs paper > > + this should be prepared by APNIC. or just draft doc itself will be > > okay > > > > - assessment of the "despatch a staff" internship to APNIC in practice > > what about APJII and APNIC. > > > > - Trial Procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address space > > + Check just any further progress > > > > - The probles of APNIC membership fee and number of vote > > + APNIC report about EC decision and we need more discuss about > future > > Driving plan. > > + How about JPNIC? Don't you have any idea about this?? no > > presentation? > > > > 5. Proposal "Request Evaluation by APNIC" / George Kuo(APNIC) > > > > 6. Other Working items > > - will be collect from other NIR. > > > > 6. elect new NIR chair > > > > 7. Future Plan include Next NIR Meeting > > > > 8. Close > > ==================================================================== > > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > > ==================================================================== > > > > > > -------------- Minutes of 2nd NIR Meeting ----------------------- > > > > 24/10/00, 17:30#19:30 > > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > > Brisbane, Australia > > > > Present > > APJII : Sanjaya, Irvan Nasrun > > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani > > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > > APNIC : Paul Wilson, Anne Lord, George Kuo > > > > Agenda > > 1. Assessment of the 'dispatch a staff' internship to APNIC (KRNIC) > > > > KRNIC > > It was quite successful and helpful for KRNIC. > > > > APJII > > We have a plan to dispatch Irvan Nasrun sooner or later. > > > > JPNIC > > We have the plan and the budget for dispatching a staff, but actually we > > have not. > > > > APNIC > > It was also good for us to know the status of KRNIC through the dispatch. > > But there was some misunderstanding about APNIC, we have a flat > decision > > making system. > > > > 2. The trial procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address > space > > (KRNIC) > > > > 3. PA Assignments (APNIC) Anne Lord > > also presented in Address Policy SIG > > > > > > -------------- Minutes of Special NIR Meeting ------------------------- > > > > 25/10/00, 08:00#09:30 > > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > > Brisbane, Australia > > > > Attendees > > APJII : Sanjaya > > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani, Naomasa Murayama > > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > > APNIC Secretariat : Paul Wilson > > APNIC EC : Geoff Huston, Xing Li > > > > Agenda : > > Problems of APNIC Membership Fee and the Number of Votes by Seung-Min Lee > > KRNIC > > > > Seung-Min Lee from KRNIC presented the proposal to re-consider the voting > > structure in proportion with the fees that NIRs are paying to APNIC. > > Although NIRs consist of several organizations, they are considered as one > > organization. As a result, the interest of the members in their country is > > not reflected well in APNIC operation as they would have if they were > > individual APNIC members.. > > > > Geoff Huston > > Argued that the number of votes per county listed in Seung-Min's > > presentation is not the actual number of votes casted per country as many > > members don't attend the AMM to vote, and currently, APNIC makes a point > > about voting with the member's presence. > > > > Furthermore, policy making is based on consensus and is not based on the > > number of votes, but the willingness to participate. From this respect, > NIRs > > have a strong say. > > > > Sanjaya(APJII) > > It is understood that the actual practice and the formal structure is > > different, but it is desirable that they match. What would be the > > disadvantage if they implement Seung-Min's proposal? > > > > Paul Wison(APNIC) > > APNIC gains consensus from both big and small organizations. If APNIC > > implements the proposal, small organization would have a smaller say, and > > may seek outside APNIC to have their voice heard. > > > > Seung-Min Lee > > If small ISPs in Korea don't get to reflect their voice, NIR has no role > as > > their representative. > > > > Maruyama(JPNIC) > > -NIRs work on behalf of APNIC > > -many small members are not interested in policy making and have become > > members to receive the address space. Therefore, separating the > > membership and allocation would solve the problem. > > > > Paul Wison(APNIC) > > APNIC is considering the membership without receiving the address space, > so > > it is a good consideration to make. > > > > Maruyama(JPNIC) > > NIRs do play a big role in both funding and policy making. > > > > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > > For taxation reason, APNIC needs to retain the membership system to > allocate > > addresses > > Furthermore, having a fixed and variable fee is quite common, and APNIC > does > > not consider it as a double pay. > > > > Seung-Min Lee(KRNIC) > > If ISP confederations pay per address, then other ISPs must also pay per > > address for the consistency. Otherwise, all of KRNIC members would go to > > APNIC. If NIRs are representatives of ISPs in their country, they should > > receive the number of votes that reflects that representation. > > > > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > > Participation is important and proxies are not desirable. If proxies are > > allowed, there may be cases where it is voted in favor of majority, and > the > > opinion of the minorities would not be reflected. To make the > > representation truly effective, the members who want to have a voice > should > > attend the meeting instead of having proxies, and the votes should be > > counted on the basis on the number of the NIR members who attended the > > meeting. > > > > It may be better to discuss voting and financing as separate issues. > > > > Paul Wilson will left the meeting so that NIRs can make a discussion among > > themselves more openly. > > > > WS Chen(TWNIC) > > Expressed concerns on connecting the number of votes with the fee paid by > > NIRs. > > > > Xing Li (EC) > > We should look at things in what is the best in the longer term and the > > consequences of implementing this would be. > > > > WH Zhang(CNNIC) > > Would like to take more time for discussion before reaching a conclusion. > > > > Sanjaya(APJII) > > It may be a good idea to have a model where both the population and the > > countries are represented separately. > > > > Conclusion > > More discussions to be made on NIR mailing list. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > > Korea Network Information Center > > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > From owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Sun Feb 18 20:20:38 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA116819; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:20:38 +1000 (EST) Received: from mail.nic.or.kr (mail.nic.or.kr [202.30.50.115]) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA116815 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:20:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from nystyle ([203.255.208.131]) by mail.nic.or.kr (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f1IAJiD29303; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:19:50 +0900 (KST) Message-ID: <001301c09994$6d663c00$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMy9wrnO?= To: , "MAEMURA Akinori" References: <004901c097fb$469db520$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> <200102181832.DFF25050.SJJBBBNS.OPLNFV@globalone.net> Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:20:27 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Precedence: bulk Thank you for your prompt reply.. See you all at KL regards ---------------------------------------------------------- Seung-Min Lee/Manager Policy Development and Statistic Research Division Korea Network Information Center Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr ---------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: MAEMURA Akinori To: ; Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 6:32 PM Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > SeungMin, > > From JPNIC following three will attend > > Tsukasa Ogino > Yuka Suzuki > Akinori Maemura > > See you in KL. > > Regards, > ----- > MAEMURA Akinori IP Engineering, Global One Japan > maem@gip.ad.jp , Akinori.Maemura@globalone.net > > > In message <004901c097fb$469db520$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> > "Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL" > "$B%?%U%9%D%1%[(B " wrote: > > :| Hello Everyone. > :| > :| Since I sent out following Announcement, I have not receive any mail > :| from NIR members. > :| > :| I must check the list of attendee. > :| > :| Therefore, all NIR members, please notify how many persons and who > :| will attend meeting ASAP. > :| > :| Thank you > :| > :| ---------------------------------------------------------- > :| Seung-Min Lee/Manager > :| Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > :| Korea Network Information Center > :| Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > :| E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > :| ---------------------------------------------------------- > :| ----- Original Message ----- > :| From: $B@L=B9N(B > :| To: > :| Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 4:02 PM > :| Subject: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > :| > :| > :| > Dear All APNIC NIR Members. > :| > As a chair of NIR Meeting, > :| > I announce the 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting as following. > :| > > :| > Comments are welcome. > :| > > :| > See you all at APRICOT 2000. > :| > > :| > Thank you > :| > ---------------------- > :| Announcement ---------------------------------------- > :| > > :| > Title : 3rd APNIC NIR member meeting > :| > Date : Tuesday 27 February during the BOF in the evening. > :| > Venue : TBA > :| > > :| > Following is the draft Agenda for NIR meeting. > :| > > :| > ==================================================================== > :| > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > :| > ==================================================================== > :| > 1. Welcome > :| > > :| > 2. Agenda Bashing > :| > > :| > 3. review of Minutes from last meeting > :| > > :| > 4. status of open actions > :| > > :| > - Criteria for establishment of new NIRs paper > :| > + this should be prepared by APNIC. or just draft doc itself will be > :| > okay > :| > > :| > - assessment of the "despatch a staff" internship to APNIC in practice > :| > what about APJII and APNIC. > :| > > :| > - Trial Procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address space > :| > + Check just any further progress > :| > > :| > - The probles of APNIC membership fee and number of vote > :| > + APNIC report about EC decision and we need more discuss about > :| future > :| > Driving plan. > :| > + How about JPNIC? Don't you have any idea about this?? no > :| > presentation? > :| > > :| > 5. Proposal "Request Evaluation by APNIC" / George Kuo(APNIC) > :| > > :| > 6. Other Working items > :| > - will be collect from other NIR. > :| > > :| > 6. elect new NIR chair > :| > > :| > 7. Future Plan include Next NIR Meeting > :| > > :| > 8. Close > :| > ==================================================================== > :| > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > :| > ==================================================================== > :| > > :| > > :| > -------------- Minutes of 2nd NIR Meeting ----------------------- > :| > > :| > 24/10/00, 17:30$B!-(B19:30 > :| > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > :| > Brisbane, Australia > :| > > :| > Present > :| > APJII : Sanjaya, Irvan Nasrun > :| > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > :| > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > :| > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani > :| > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > :| > APNIC : Paul Wilson, Anne Lord, George Kuo > :| > > :| > Agenda > :| > 1. Assessment of the 'dispatch a staff' internship to APNIC (KRNIC) > :| > > :| > KRNIC > :| > It was quite successful and helpful for KRNIC. > :| > > :| > APJII > :| > We have a plan to dispatch Irvan Nasrun sooner or later. > :| > > :| > JPNIC > :| > We have the plan and the budget for dispatching a staff, but actually we > :| > have not. > :| > > :| > APNIC > :| > It was also good for us to know the status of KRNIC through the dispatch. > :| > But there was some misunderstanding about APNIC, we have a flat > :| decision > :| > making system. > :| > > :| > 2. The trial procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address > :| space > :| > (KRNIC) > :| > > :| > 3. PA Assignments (APNIC) Anne Lord > :| > also presented in Address Policy SIG > :| > > :| > > :| > -------------- Minutes of Special NIR Meeting ------------------------- > :| > > :| > 25/10/00, 08:00$B!-(B09:30 > :| > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > :| > Brisbane, Australia > :| > > :| > Attendees > :| > APJII : Sanjaya > :| > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > :| > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > :| > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani, Naomasa Murayama > :| > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > :| > APNIC Secretariat : Paul Wilson > :| > APNIC EC : Geoff Huston, Xing Li > :| > > :| > Agenda : > :| > Problems of APNIC Membership Fee and the Number of Votes by Seung-Min Lee > :| > KRNIC > :| > > :| > Seung-Min Lee from KRNIC presented the proposal to re-consider the voting > :| > structure in proportion with the fees that NIRs are paying to APNIC. > :| > Although NIRs consist of several organizations, they are considered as one > :| > organization. As a result, the interest of the members in their country is > :| > not reflected well in APNIC operation as they would have if they were > :| > individual APNIC members.. > :| > > :| > Geoff Huston > :| > Argued that the number of votes per county listed in Seung-Min's > :| > presentation is not the actual number of votes casted per country as many > :| > members don't attend the AMM to vote, and currently, APNIC makes a point > :| > about voting with the member's presence. > :| > > :| > Furthermore, policy making is based on consensus and is not based on the > :| > number of votes, but the willingness to participate. From this respect, > :| NIRs > :| > have a strong say. > :| > > :| > Sanjaya(APJII) > :| > It is understood that the actual practice and the formal structure is > :| > different, but it is desirable that they match. What would be the > :| > disadvantage if they implement Seung-Min's proposal? > :| > > :| > Paul Wison(APNIC) > :| > APNIC gains consensus from both big and small organizations. If APNIC > :| > implements the proposal, small organization would have a smaller say, and > :| > may seek outside APNIC to have their voice heard. > :| > > :| > Seung-Min Lee > :| > If small ISPs in Korea don't get to reflect their voice, NIR has no role > :| as > :| > their representative. > :| > > :| > Maruyama(JPNIC) > :| > -NIRs work on behalf of APNIC > :| > -many small members are not interested in policy making and have become > :| > members to receive the address space. Therefore, separating the > :| > membership and allocation would solve the problem. > :| > > :| > Paul Wison(APNIC) > :| > APNIC is considering the membership without receiving the address space, > :| so > :| > it is a good consideration to make. > :| > > :| > Maruyama(JPNIC) > :| > NIRs do play a big role in both funding and policy making. > :| > > :| > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > :| > For taxation reason, APNIC needs to retain the membership system to > :| allocate > :| > addresses > :| > Furthermore, having a fixed and variable fee is quite common, and APNIC > :| does > :| > not consider it as a double pay. > :| > > :| > Seung-Min Lee(KRNIC) > :| > If ISP confederations pay per address, then other ISPs must also pay per > :| > address for the consistency. Otherwise, all of KRNIC members would go to > :| > APNIC. If NIRs are representatives of ISPs in their country, they should > :| > receive the number of votes that reflects that representation. > :| > > :| > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > :| > Participation is important and proxies are not desirable. If proxies are > :| > allowed, there may be cases where it is voted in favor of majority, and > :| the > :| > opinion of the minorities would not be reflected. To make the > :| > representation truly effective, the members who want to have a voice > :| should > :| > attend the meeting instead of having proxies, and the votes should be > :| > counted on the basis on the number of the NIR members who attended the > :| > meeting. > :| > > :| > It may be better to discuss voting and financing as separate issues. > :| > > :| > Paul Wilson will left the meeting so that NIRs can make a discussion among > :| > themselves more openly. > :| > > :| > WS Chen(TWNIC) > :| > Expressed concerns on connecting the number of votes with the fee paid by > :| > NIRs. > :| > > :| > Xing Li (EC) > :| > We should look at things in what is the best in the longer term and the > :| > consequences of implementing this would be. > :| > > :| > WH Zhang(CNNIC) > :| > Would like to take more time for discussion before reaching a conclusion. > :| > > :| > Sanjaya(APJII) > :| > It may be a good idea to have a model where both the population and the > :| > countries are represented separately. > :| > > :| > Conclusion > :| > More discussions to be made on NIR mailing list. > :| > > :| > ---------------------------------------------------------- > :| > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > :| > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > :| > Korea Network Information Center > :| > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > :| > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > :| > ---------------------------------------------------------- > :| > > :| From owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Sun Feb 18 20:21:56 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA116969; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:21:56 +1000 (EST) Received: from mail.nic.or.kr (mail.nic.or.kr [202.30.50.115]) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA116947 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:21:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from nystyle ([203.255.208.131]) by mail.nic.or.kr (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f1IAKYD29325; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:20:34 +0900 (KST) Message-ID: <001701c09994$87eadea0$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMy9wrnO?= To: Cc: References: <004901c097fb$469db520$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> <3A8F7F7F.50389AD1@cnnic.net.cn> Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:21:17 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Precedence: bulk thank you so much for your prompt reply. See you all at KL ---------------------------------------------------------- Seung-Min Lee/Manager Policy Development and Statistic Research Division Korea Network Information Center Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr ---------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: zwh To: 檜蝓團 Cc: Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 4:53 PM Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > hello Everyone: > > CNNICㄩ Qian Hualin, Wei Mao, Wenhui Zhang and Yan Luo > > will attend the meeting. > > See you > > > wenhui > CNNNIC > > > 檜蝓團 wrote: > > > Hello Everyone. > > > > Since I sent out following Announcement, I have not receive any mail > > from NIR members. > > > > I must check the list of attendee. > > > > Therefore, all NIR members, please notify how many persons and who > > will attend meeting ASAP. > > > > Thank you > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > > Korea Network Information Center > > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: 檜蝓團 > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 4:02 PM > > Subject: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > > > > > Dear All APNIC NIR Members. > > > As a chair of NIR Meeting, > > > I announce the 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting as following. > > > > > > Comments are welcome. > > > > > > See you all at APRICOT 2000. > > > > > > Thank you > > > ---------------------- > > Announcement ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > Title : 3rd APNIC NIR member meeting > > > Date : Tuesday 27 February during the BOF in the evening. > > > Venue : TBA > > > > > > Following is the draft Agenda for NIR meeting. > > > > > > ==================================================================== > > > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > > > ==================================================================== > > > 1. Welcome > > > > > > 2. Agenda Bashing > > > > > > 3. review of Minutes from last meeting > > > > > > 4. status of open actions > > > > > > - Criteria for establishment of new NIRs paper > > > + this should be prepared by APNIC. or just draft doc itself will be > > > okay > > > > > > - assessment of the "despatch a staff" internship to APNIC in practice > > > what about APJII and APNIC. > > > > > > - Trial Procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address space > > > + Check just any further progress > > > > > > - The probles of APNIC membership fee and number of vote > > > + APNIC report about EC decision and we need more discuss about > > future > > > Driving plan. > > > + How about JPNIC? Don't you have any idea about this?? no > > > presentation? > > > > > > 5. Proposal "Request Evaluation by APNIC" / George Kuo(APNIC) > > > > > > 6. Other Working items > > > - will be collect from other NIR. > > > > > > 6. elect new NIR chair > > > > > > 7. Future Plan include Next NIR Meeting > > > > > > 8. Close > > > ==================================================================== > > > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > > > ==================================================================== > > > > > > > > > -------------- Minutes of 2nd NIR Meeting ----------------------- > > > > > > 24/10/00, 17:30#19:30 > > > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > > > Brisbane, Australia > > > > > > Present > > > APJII : Sanjaya, Irvan Nasrun > > > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > > > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > > > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani > > > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > > > APNIC : Paul Wilson, Anne Lord, George Kuo > > > > > > Agenda > > > 1. Assessment of the 'dispatch a staff' internship to APNIC (KRNIC) > > > > > > KRNIC > > > It was quite successful and helpful for KRNIC. > > > > > > APJII > > > We have a plan to dispatch Irvan Nasrun sooner or later. > > > > > > JPNIC > > > We have the plan and the budget for dispatching a staff, but actually we > > > have not. > > > > > > APNIC > > > It was also good for us to know the status of KRNIC through the dispatch. > > > But there was some misunderstanding about APNIC, we have a flat > > decision > > > making system. > > > > > > 2. The trial procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address > > space > > > (KRNIC) > > > > > > 3. PA Assignments (APNIC) Anne Lord > > > also presented in Address Policy SIG > > > > > > > > > -------------- Minutes of Special NIR Meeting ------------------------- > > > > > > 25/10/00, 08:00#09:30 > > > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > > > Brisbane, Australia > > > > > > Attendees > > > APJII : Sanjaya > > > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > > > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > > > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani, Naomasa Murayama > > > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > > > APNIC Secretariat : Paul Wilson > > > APNIC EC : Geoff Huston, Xing Li > > > > > > Agenda : > > > Problems of APNIC Membership Fee and the Number of Votes by Seung-Min Lee > > > KRNIC > > > > > > Seung-Min Lee from KRNIC presented the proposal to re-consider the voting > > > structure in proportion with the fees that NIRs are paying to APNIC. > > > Although NIRs consist of several organizations, they are considered as one > > > organization. As a result, the interest of the members in their country is > > > not reflected well in APNIC operation as they would have if they were > > > individual APNIC members.. > > > > > > Geoff Huston > > > Argued that the number of votes per county listed in Seung-Min's > > > presentation is not the actual number of votes casted per country as many > > > members don't attend the AMM to vote, and currently, APNIC makes a point > > > about voting with the member's presence. > > > > > > Furthermore, policy making is based on consensus and is not based on the > > > number of votes, but the willingness to participate. From this respect, > > NIRs > > > have a strong say. > > > > > > Sanjaya(APJII) > > > It is understood that the actual practice and the formal structure is > > > different, but it is desirable that they match. What would be the > > > disadvantage if they implement Seung-Min's proposal? > > > > > > Paul Wison(APNIC) > > > APNIC gains consensus from both big and small organizations. If APNIC > > > implements the proposal, small organization would have a smaller say, and > > > may seek outside APNIC to have their voice heard. > > > > > > Seung-Min Lee > > > If small ISPs in Korea don't get to reflect their voice, NIR has no role > > as > > > their representative. > > > > > > Maruyama(JPNIC) > > > -NIRs work on behalf of APNIC > > > -many small members are not interested in policy making and have become > > > members to receive the address space. Therefore, separating the > > > membership and allocation would solve the problem. > > > > > > Paul Wison(APNIC) > > > APNIC is considering the membership without receiving the address space, > > so > > > it is a good consideration to make. > > > > > > Maruyama(JPNIC) > > > NIRs do play a big role in both funding and policy making. > > > > > > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > > > For taxation reason, APNIC needs to retain the membership system to > > allocate > > > addresses > > > Furthermore, having a fixed and variable fee is quite common, and APNIC > > does > > > not consider it as a double pay. > > > > > > Seung-Min Lee(KRNIC) > > > If ISP confederations pay per address, then other ISPs must also pay per > > > address for the consistency. Otherwise, all of KRNIC members would go to > > > APNIC. If NIRs are representatives of ISPs in their country, they should > > > receive the number of votes that reflects that representation. > > > > > > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > > > Participation is important and proxies are not desirable. If proxies are > > > allowed, there may be cases where it is voted in favor of majority, and > > the > > > opinion of the minorities would not be reflected. To make the > > > representation truly effective, the members who want to have a voice > > should > > > attend the meeting instead of having proxies, and the votes should be > > > counted on the basis on the number of the NIR members who attended the > > > meeting. > > > > > > It may be better to discuss voting and financing as separate issues. > > > > > > Paul Wilson will left the meeting so that NIRs can make a discussion among > > > themselves more openly. > > > > > > WS Chen(TWNIC) > > > Expressed concerns on connecting the number of votes with the fee paid by > > > NIRs. > > > > > > Xing Li (EC) > > > We should look at things in what is the best in the longer term and the > > > consequences of implementing this would be. > > > > > > WH Zhang(CNNIC) > > > Would like to take more time for discussion before reaching a conclusion. > > > > > > Sanjaya(APJII) > > > It may be a good idea to have a model where both the population and the > > > countries are represented separately. > > > > > > Conclusion > > > More discussions to be made on NIR mailing list. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > > > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > > > Korea Network Information Center > > > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > > > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Sun Feb 18 20:26:20 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA117471; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:26:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from mail.nic.or.kr (mail.nic.or.kr [202.30.50.115]) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA117452 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:26:12 +1000 (EST) Received: from nystyle ([203.255.208.131]) by mail.nic.or.kr (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f1IAPKD29352; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:25:20 +0900 (KST) Message-ID: <004701c09995$32955c40$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMy9wrnO?= To: , "MAEMURA Akinori" References: <004901c097fb$469db520$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> <200102181832.DFF25050.SJJBBBNS.OPLNFV@globalone.net> Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:26:04 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Precedence: bulk Dear all >From KRNIC me and one of my staffs Sung-Woo Shin will be there. So, up to now, following attendees has been confirmed. ====================================================== CNNIC - Qian Hualin, Wei Mao, Wenhui Zhang and Yan Luo JPNIC - Tsukasa Ogino, Yuka Suzuki, Akinori Maemura KRNIC - Seung-Min Lee, Sung-Woo Shin and one more(not fixed) ====================================================== How about APNIC, APJII and TWNIC? Please let me know who will attend 3rd NIR Meeting. Thank you in advance. ---------------------------------------------------------- Seung-Min Lee/Manager Policy Development and Statistic Research Division Korea Network Information Center Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr ---------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: MAEMURA Akinori To: ; Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 6:32 PM Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > SeungMin, > > From JPNIC following three will attend > > Tsukasa Ogino > Yuka Suzuki > Akinori Maemura > > See you in KL. > > Regards, > ----- > MAEMURA Akinori IP Engineering, Global One Japan > maem@gip.ad.jp , Akinori.Maemura@globalone.net > > > In message <004901c097fb$469db520$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> > "Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL" > "$B%?%U%9%D%1%[(B " wrote: > > :| Hello Everyone. > :| > :| Since I sent out following Announcement, I have not receive any mail > :| from NIR members. > :| > :| I must check the list of attendee. > :| > :| Therefore, all NIR members, please notify how many persons and who > :| will attend meeting ASAP. > :| > :| Thank you > :| > :| ---------------------------------------------------------- > :| Seung-Min Lee/Manager > :| Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > :| Korea Network Information Center > :| Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > :| E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > :| ---------------------------------------------------------- > :| ----- Original Message ----- > :| From: $B@L=B9N(B > :| To: > :| Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 4:02 PM > :| Subject: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > :| > :| > :| > Dear All APNIC NIR Members. > :| > As a chair of NIR Meeting, > :| > I announce the 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting as following. > :| > > :| > Comments are welcome. > :| > > :| > See you all at APRICOT 2000. > :| > > :| > Thank you > :| > ---------------------- > :| Announcement ---------------------------------------- > :| > > :| > Title : 3rd APNIC NIR member meeting > :| > Date : Tuesday 27 February during the BOF in the evening. > :| > Venue : TBA > :| > > :| > Following is the draft Agenda for NIR meeting. > :| > > :| > ==================================================================== > :| > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > :| > ==================================================================== > :| > 1. Welcome > :| > > :| > 2. Agenda Bashing > :| > > :| > 3. review of Minutes from last meeting > :| > > :| > 4. status of open actions > :| > > :| > - Criteria for establishment of new NIRs paper > :| > + this should be prepared by APNIC. or just draft doc itself will be > :| > okay > :| > > :| > - assessment of the "despatch a staff" internship to APNIC in practice > :| > what about APJII and APNIC. > :| > > :| > - Trial Procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address space > :| > + Check just any further progress > :| > > :| > - The probles of APNIC membership fee and number of vote > :| > + APNIC report about EC decision and we need more discuss about > :| future > :| > Driving plan. > :| > + How about JPNIC? Don't you have any idea about this?? no > :| > presentation? > :| > > :| > 5. Proposal "Request Evaluation by APNIC" / George Kuo(APNIC) > :| > > :| > 6. Other Working items > :| > - will be collect from other NIR. > :| > > :| > 6. elect new NIR chair > :| > > :| > 7. Future Plan include Next NIR Meeting > :| > > :| > 8. Close > :| > ==================================================================== > :| > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > :| > ==================================================================== > :| > > :| > > :| > -------------- Minutes of 2nd NIR Meeting ----------------------- > :| > > :| > 24/10/00, 17:30$B!-(B19:30 > :| > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > :| > Brisbane, Australia > :| > > :| > Present > :| > APJII : Sanjaya, Irvan Nasrun > :| > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > :| > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > :| > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani > :| > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > :| > APNIC : Paul Wilson, Anne Lord, George Kuo > :| > > :| > Agenda > :| > 1. Assessment of the 'dispatch a staff' internship to APNIC (KRNIC) > :| > > :| > KRNIC > :| > It was quite successful and helpful for KRNIC. > :| > > :| > APJII > :| > We have a plan to dispatch Irvan Nasrun sooner or later. > :| > > :| > JPNIC > :| > We have the plan and the budget for dispatching a staff, but actually we > :| > have not. > :| > > :| > APNIC > :| > It was also good for us to know the status of KRNIC through the dispatch. > :| > But there was some misunderstanding about APNIC, we have a flat > :| decision > :| > making system. > :| > > :| > 2. The trial procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address > :| space > :| > (KRNIC) > :| > > :| > 3. PA Assignments (APNIC) Anne Lord > :| > also presented in Address Policy SIG > :| > > :| > > :| > -------------- Minutes of Special NIR Meeting ------------------------- > :| > > :| > 25/10/00, 08:00$B!-(B09:30 > :| > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > :| > Brisbane, Australia > :| > > :| > Attendees > :| > APJII : Sanjaya > :| > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > :| > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > :| > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani, Naomasa Murayama > :| > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > :| > APNIC Secretariat : Paul Wilson > :| > APNIC EC : Geoff Huston, Xing Li > :| > > :| > Agenda : > :| > Problems of APNIC Membership Fee and the Number of Votes by Seung-Min Lee > :| > KRNIC > :| > > :| > Seung-Min Lee from KRNIC presented the proposal to re-consider the voting > :| > structure in proportion with the fees that NIRs are paying to APNIC. > :| > Although NIRs consist of several organizations, they are considered as one > :| > organization. As a result, the interest of the members in their country is > :| > not reflected well in APNIC operation as they would have if they were > :| > individual APNIC members.. > :| > > :| > Geoff Huston > :| > Argued that the number of votes per county listed in Seung-Min's > :| > presentation is not the actual number of votes casted per country as many > :| > members don't attend the AMM to vote, and currently, APNIC makes a point > :| > about voting with the member's presence. > :| > > :| > Furthermore, policy making is based on consensus and is not based on the > :| > number of votes, but the willingness to participate. From this respect, > :| NIRs > :| > have a strong say. > :| > > :| > Sanjaya(APJII) > :| > It is understood that the actual practice and the formal structure is > :| > different, but it is desirable that they match. What would be the > :| > disadvantage if they implement Seung-Min's proposal? > :| > > :| > Paul Wison(APNIC) > :| > APNIC gains consensus from both big and small organizations. If APNIC > :| > implements the proposal, small organization would have a smaller say, and > :| > may seek outside APNIC to have their voice heard. > :| > > :| > Seung-Min Lee > :| > If small ISPs in Korea don't get to reflect their voice, NIR has no role > :| as > :| > their representative. > :| > > :| > Maruyama(JPNIC) > :| > -NIRs work on behalf of APNIC > :| > -many small members are not interested in policy making and have become > :| > members to receive the address space. Therefore, separating the > :| > membership and allocation would solve the problem. > :| > > :| > Paul Wison(APNIC) > :| > APNIC is considering the membership without receiving the address space, > :| so > :| > it is a good consideration to make. > :| > > :| > Maruyama(JPNIC) > :| > NIRs do play a big role in both funding and policy making. > :| > > :| > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > :| > For taxation reason, APNIC needs to retain the membership system to > :| allocate > :| > addresses > :| > Furthermore, having a fixed and variable fee is quite common, and APNIC > :| does > :| > not consider it as a double pay. > :| > > :| > Seung-Min Lee(KRNIC) > :| > If ISP confederations pay per address, then other ISPs must also pay per > :| > address for the consistency. Otherwise, all of KRNIC members would go to > :| > APNIC. If NIRs are representatives of ISPs in their country, they should > :| > receive the number of votes that reflects that representation. > :| > > :| > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > :| > Participation is important and proxies are not desirable. If proxies are > :| > allowed, there may be cases where it is voted in favor of majority, and > :| the > :| > opinion of the minorities would not be reflected. To make the > :| > representation truly effective, the members who want to have a voice > :| should > :| > attend the meeting instead of having proxies, and the votes should be > :| > counted on the basis on the number of the NIR members who attended the > :| > meeting. > :| > > :| > It may be better to discuss voting and financing as separate issues. > :| > > :| > Paul Wilson will left the meeting so that NIRs can make a discussion among > :| > themselves more openly. > :| > > :| > WS Chen(TWNIC) > :| > Expressed concerns on connecting the number of votes with the fee paid by > :| > NIRs. > :| > > :| > Xing Li (EC) > :| > We should look at things in what is the best in the longer term and the > :| > consequences of implementing this would be. > :| > > :| > WH Zhang(CNNIC) > :| > Would like to take more time for discussion before reaching a conclusion. > :| > > :| > Sanjaya(APJII) > :| > It may be a good idea to have a model where both the population and the > :| > countries are represented separately. > :| > > :| > Conclusion > :| > More discussions to be made on NIR mailing list. > :| > > :| > ---------------------------------------------------------- > :| > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > :| > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > :| > Korea Network Information Center > :| > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > :| > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > :| > ---------------------------------------------------------- > :| > > :| From owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Mon Feb 19 11:34:09 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA111850; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:34:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from twnic.net.tw (twnic.net.tw [211.72.210.250]) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA111831 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:34:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from oyang (pc043.twnic.net.tw [211.72.211.43]) by twnic.net.tw (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA25413; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:33:10 +0800 Message-ID: <008501c09a15$86478a40$2bd348d3@twnic.net.tw> From: "oyang" To: =?utf-8?B?7J207Iq566+8?= , References: <004901c097fb$469db520$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:44:30 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Precedence: bulk Hi Seung Min, and NIR-members, Attending the NIR meeting from TWNIC are: 1. Wen Sung, Chen ( Executive Director ) 2. Shih Chiung, Ouyang ( Senior Administrator ) Best regards, Shih Chiung TWNIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "渥寨紡" To: "渥寨紡" ; Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 5:31 PM Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > Hello Everyone. > > Since I sent out following Announcement, I have not receive any mail > from NIR members. > > I must check the list of attendee. > > Therefore, all NIR members, please notify how many persons and who > will attend meeting ASAP. > > Thank you > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > Korea Network Information Center > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: 瑼 > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 4:02 PM > Subject: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > > > > Dear All APNIC NIR Members. > > As a chair of NIR Meeting, > > I announce the 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting as following. > > > > Comments are welcome. > > > > See you all at APRICOT 2000. > > > > Thank you > > ---------------------- > Announcement ---------------------------------------- > > > > Title : 3rd APNIC NIR member meeting > > Date : Tuesday 27 February during the BOF in the evening. > > Venue : TBA > > > > Following is the draft Agenda for NIR meeting. > > > > ==================================================================== > > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > > ==================================================================== > > 1. Welcome > > > > 2. Agenda Bashing > > > > 3. review of Minutes from last meeting > > > > 4. status of open actions > > > > - Criteria for establishment of new NIRs paper > > + this should be prepared by APNIC. or just draft doc itself will be > > okay > > > > - assessment of the "despatch a staff" internship to APNIC in practice > > what about APJII and APNIC. > > > > - Trial Procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address space > > + Check just any further progress > > > > - The probles of APNIC membership fee and number of vote > > + APNIC report about EC decision and we need more discuss about > future > > Driving plan. > > + How about JPNIC? Don't you have any idea about this?? no > > presentation? > > > > 5. Proposal "Request Evaluation by APNIC" / George Kuo(APNIC) > > > > 6. Other Working items > > - will be collect from other NIR. > > > > 6. elect new NIR chair > > > > 7. Future Plan include Next NIR Meeting > > > > 8. Close > > ==================================================================== > > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > > ==================================================================== > > > > > > -------------- Minutes of 2nd NIR Meeting ----------------------- > > > > 24/10/00, 17:30嚗19:30 > > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > > Brisbane, Australia > > > > Present > > APJII : Sanjaya, Irvan Nasrun > > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani > > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > > APNIC : Paul Wilson, Anne Lord, George Kuo > > > > Agenda > > 1. Assessment of the 'dispatch a staff' internship to APNIC (KRNIC) > > > > KRNIC > > It was quite successful and helpful for KRNIC. > > > > APJII > > We have a plan to dispatch Irvan Nasrun sooner or later. > > > > JPNIC > > We have the plan and the budget for dispatching a staff, but actually we > > have not. > > > > APNIC > > It was also good for us to know the status of KRNIC through the dispatch. > > But there was some misunderstanding about APNIC, we have a flat > decision > > making system. > > > > 2. The trial procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address > space > > (KRNIC) > > > > 3. PA Assignments (APNIC) Anne Lord > > also presented in Address Policy SIG > > > > > > -------------- Minutes of Special NIR Meeting ------------------------- > > > > 25/10/00, 08:00嚗09:30 > > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > > Brisbane, Australia > > > > Attendees > > APJII : Sanjaya > > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani, Naomasa Murayama > > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > > APNIC Secretariat : Paul Wilson > > APNIC EC : Geoff Huston, Xing Li > > > > Agenda : > > Problems of APNIC Membership Fee and the Number of Votes by Seung-Min Lee > > KRNIC > > > > Seung-Min Lee from KRNIC presented the proposal to re-consider the voting > > structure in proportion with the fees that NIRs are paying to APNIC. > > Although NIRs consist of several organizations, they are considered as one > > organization. As a result, the interest of the members in their country is > > not reflected well in APNIC operation as they would have if they were > > individual APNIC members.. > > > > Geoff Huston > > Argued that the number of votes per county listed in Seung-Min's > > presentation is not the actual number of votes casted per country as many > > members don't attend the AMM to vote, and currently, APNIC makes a point > > about voting with the member's presence. > > > > Furthermore, policy making is based on consensus and is not based on the > > number of votes, but the willingness to participate. From this respect, > NIRs > > have a strong say. > > > > Sanjaya(APJII) > > It is understood that the actual practice and the formal structure is > > different, but it is desirable that they match. What would be the > > disadvantage if they implement Seung-Min's proposal? > > > > Paul Wison(APNIC) > > APNIC gains consensus from both big and small organizations. If APNIC > > implements the proposal, small organization would have a smaller say, and > > may seek outside APNIC to have their voice heard. > > > > Seung-Min Lee > > If small ISPs in Korea don't get to reflect their voice, NIR has no role > as > > their representative. > > > > Maruyama(JPNIC) > > -NIRs work on behalf of APNIC > > -many small members are not interested in policy making and have become > > members to receive the address space. Therefore, separating the > > membership and allocation would solve the problem. > > > > Paul Wison(APNIC) > > APNIC is considering the membership without receiving the address space, > so > > it is a good consideration to make. > > > > Maruyama(JPNIC) > > NIRs do play a big role in both funding and policy making. > > > > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > > For taxation reason, APNIC needs to retain the membership system to > allocate > > addresses > > Furthermore, having a fixed and variable fee is quite common, and APNIC > does > > not consider it as a double pay. > > > > Seung-Min Lee(KRNIC) > > If ISP confederations pay per address, then other ISPs must also pay per > > address for the consistency. Otherwise, all of KRNIC members would go to > > APNIC. If NIRs are representatives of ISPs in their country, they should > > receive the number of votes that reflects that representation. > > > > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > > Participation is important and proxies are not desirable. If proxies are > > allowed, there may be cases where it is voted in favor of majority, and > the > > opinion of the minorities would not be reflected. To make the > > representation truly effective, the members who want to have a voice > should > > attend the meeting instead of having proxies, and the votes should be > > counted on the basis on the number of the NIR members who attended the > > meeting. > > > > It may be better to discuss voting and financing as separate issues. > > > > Paul Wilson will left the meeting so that NIRs can make a discussion among > > themselves more openly. > > > > WS Chen(TWNIC) > > Expressed concerns on connecting the number of votes with the fee paid by > > NIRs. > > > > Xing Li (EC) > > We should look at things in what is the best in the longer term and the > > consequences of implementing this would be. > > > > WH Zhang(CNNIC) > > Would like to take more time for discussion before reaching a conclusion. > > > > Sanjaya(APJII) > > It may be a good idea to have a model where both the population and the > > countries are represented separately. > > > > Conclusion > > More discussions to be made on NIR mailing list. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > > Korea Network Information Center > > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > From owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Mon Feb 19 11:36:09 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA112157; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:36:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from mail.nic.or.kr (mail.nic.or.kr [202.30.50.115]) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA112138 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:36:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from ywju ([203.255.208.142]) by mail.nic.or.kr (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f1J1ZID12678; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:35:18 +0900 (KST) Message-ID: <0a2f01c09a14$52197f40$8ed0ffcb@nic.or.kr> From: "KRNIC Hostmaster" To: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMy9wrnO?= , , "MAEMURA Akinori" References: <004901c097fb$469db520$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> <200102181832.DFF25050.SJJBBBNS.OPLNFV@globalone.net> <004701c09995$32955c40$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:36:02 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Precedence: bulk Dear Sir, At KRNIC, Yong Wan Ju & Mu Ho Cheon will attend that meeting additionally. Thank you. Yong Wan Ju =========================================== Yong Wan Ju Manager of IP Management Division in KRNIC E-mail : ywju@nic.or.kr =========================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: 檜蝓團 To: ; MAEMURA Akinori Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 7:26 PM Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > Dear all > > From KRNIC me and one of my staffs Sung-Woo Shin will be there. > > So, up to now, following attendees has been confirmed. > > ====================================================== > CNNIC - Qian Hualin, Wei Mao, Wenhui Zhang and Yan Luo > JPNIC - Tsukasa Ogino, Yuka Suzuki, Akinori Maemura > KRNIC - Seung-Min Lee, Sung-Woo Shin and one more(not fixed) > ====================================================== > > How about APNIC, APJII and TWNIC? > Please let me know who will attend 3rd NIR Meeting. > > Thank you in advance. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > Korea Network Information Center > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MAEMURA Akinori > To: ; > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 6:32 PM > Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > > > > SeungMin, > > > > From JPNIC following three will attend > > > > Tsukasa Ogino > > Yuka Suzuki > > Akinori Maemura > > > > See you in KL. > > > > Regards, > > ----- > > MAEMURA Akinori IP Engineering, Global One Japan > > maem@gip.ad.jp , Akinori.Maemura@globalone.net > > > > > > In message <004901c097fb$469db520$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> > > "Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL" > > "$B%?%U%9%D%1%[(B " wrote: > > > > :| Hello Everyone. > > :| > > :| Since I sent out following Announcement, I have not receive any mail > > :| from NIR members. > > :| > > :| I must check the list of attendee. > > :| > > :| Therefore, all NIR members, please notify how many persons and who > > :| will attend meeting ASAP. > > :| > > :| Thank you > > :| > > :| ---------------------------------------------------------- > > :| Seung-Min Lee/Manager > > :| Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > > :| Korea Network Information Center > > :| Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > > :| E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > > :| ---------------------------------------------------------- > > :| ----- Original Message ----- > > :| From: $B@L=B9N(B > > :| To: > > :| Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 4:02 PM > > :| Subject: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > > :| > > :| > > :| > Dear All APNIC NIR Members. > > :| > As a chair of NIR Meeting, > > :| > I announce the 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting as following. > > :| > > > :| > Comments are welcome. > > :| > > > :| > See you all at APRICOT 2000. > > :| > > > :| > Thank you > > :| > ---------------------- > > :| Announcement ---------------------------------------- > > :| > > > :| > Title : 3rd APNIC NIR member meeting > > :| > Date : Tuesday 27 February during the BOF in the evening. > > :| > Venue : TBA > > :| > > > :| > Following is the draft Agenda for NIR meeting. > > :| > > > :| > ==================================================================== > > :| > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > > :| > ==================================================================== > > :| > 1. Welcome > > :| > > > :| > 2. Agenda Bashing > > :| > > > :| > 3. review of Minutes from last meeting > > :| > > > :| > 4. status of open actions > > :| > > > :| > - Criteria for establishment of new NIRs paper > > :| > + this should be prepared by APNIC. or just draft doc itself > will be > > :| > okay > > :| > > > :| > - assessment of the "despatch a staff" internship to APNIC in > practice > > :| > what about APJII and APNIC. > > :| > > > :| > - Trial Procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address > space > > :| > + Check just any further progress > > :| > > > :| > - The probles of APNIC membership fee and number of vote > > :| > + APNIC report about EC decision and we need more discuss about > > :| future > > :| > Driving plan. > > :| > + How about JPNIC? Don't you have any idea about this?? no > > :| > presentation? > > :| > > > :| > 5. Proposal "Request Evaluation by APNIC" / George Kuo(APNIC) > > :| > > > :| > 6. Other Working items > > :| > - will be collect from other NIR. > > :| > > > :| > 6. elect new NIR chair > > :| > > > :| > 7. Future Plan include Next NIR Meeting > > :| > > > :| > 8. Close > > :| > ==================================================================== > > :| > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > > :| > ==================================================================== > > :| > > > :| > > > :| > -------------- Minutes of 2nd NIR Meeting ----------------------- > > :| > > > :| > 24/10/00, 17:30$B!-(B19:30 > > :| > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > > :| > Brisbane, Australia > > :| > > > :| > Present > > :| > APJII : Sanjaya, Irvan Nasrun > > :| > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > > :| > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > > :| > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani > > :| > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > > :| > APNIC : Paul Wilson, Anne Lord, George Kuo > > :| > > > :| > Agenda > > :| > 1. Assessment of the 'dispatch a staff' internship to APNIC (KRNIC) > > :| > > > :| > KRNIC > > :| > It was quite successful and helpful for KRNIC. > > :| > > > :| > APJII > > :| > We have a plan to dispatch Irvan Nasrun sooner or later. > > :| > > > :| > JPNIC > > :| > We have the plan and the budget for dispatching a staff, but actually > we > > :| > have not. > > :| > > > :| > APNIC > > :| > It was also good for us to know the status of KRNIC through the > dispatch. > > :| > But there was some misunderstanding about APNIC, we have a flat > > :| decision > > :| > making system. > > :| > > > :| > 2. The trial procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP > address > > :| space > > :| > (KRNIC) > > :| > > > :| > 3. PA Assignments (APNIC) Anne Lord > > :| > also presented in Address Policy SIG > > :| > > > :| > > > :| > -------------- Minutes of Special NIR > Meeting ------------------------- > > :| > > > :| > 25/10/00, 08:00$B!-(B09:30 > > :| > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > > :| > Brisbane, Australia > > :| > > > :| > Attendees > > :| > APJII : Sanjaya > > :| > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > > :| > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > > :| > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani, Naomasa Murayama > > :| > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > > :| > APNIC Secretariat : Paul Wilson > > :| > APNIC EC : Geoff Huston, Xing Li > > :| > > > :| > Agenda : > > :| > Problems of APNIC Membership Fee and the Number of Votes by Seung-Min > Lee > > :| > KRNIC > > :| > > > :| > Seung-Min Lee from KRNIC presented the proposal to re-consider the > voting > > :| > structure in proportion with the fees that NIRs are paying to APNIC. > > :| > Although NIRs consist of several organizations, they are considered > as one > > :| > organization. As a result, the interest of the members in their > country is > > :| > not reflected well in APNIC operation as they would have if they were > > :| > individual APNIC members.. > > :| > > > :| > Geoff Huston > > :| > Argued that the number of votes per county listed in Seung-Min's > > :| > presentation is not the actual number of votes casted per country as > many > > :| > members don't attend the AMM to vote, and currently, APNIC makes a > point > > :| > about voting with the member's presence. > > :| > > > :| > Furthermore, policy making is based on consensus and is not based on > the > > :| > number of votes, but the willingness to participate. From this > respect, > > :| NIRs > > :| > have a strong say. > > :| > > > :| > Sanjaya(APJII) > > :| > It is understood that the actual practice and the formal structure is > > :| > different, but it is desirable that they match. What would be the > > :| > disadvantage if they implement Seung-Min's proposal? > > :| > > > :| > Paul Wison(APNIC) > > :| > APNIC gains consensus from both big and small organizations. If APNIC > > :| > implements the proposal, small organization would have a smaller say, > and > > :| > may seek outside APNIC to have their voice heard. > > :| > > > :| > Seung-Min Lee > > :| > If small ISPs in Korea don't get to reflect their voice, NIR has no > role > > :| as > > :| > their representative. > > :| > > > :| > Maruyama(JPNIC) > > :| > -NIRs work on behalf of APNIC > > :| > -many small members are not interested in policy making and have > become > > :| > members to receive the address space. Therefore, separating the > > :| > membership and allocation would solve the problem. > > :| > > > :| > Paul Wison(APNIC) > > :| > APNIC is considering the membership without receiving the address > space, > > :| so > > :| > it is a good consideration to make. > > :| > > > :| > Maruyama(JPNIC) > > :| > NIRs do play a big role in both funding and policy making. > > :| > > > :| > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > > :| > For taxation reason, APNIC needs to retain the membership system to > > :| allocate > > :| > addresses > > :| > Furthermore, having a fixed and variable fee is quite common, and > APNIC > > :| does > > :| > not consider it as a double pay. > > :| > > > :| > Seung-Min Lee(KRNIC) > > :| > If ISP confederations pay per address, then other ISPs must also pay > per > > :| > address for the consistency. Otherwise, all of KRNIC members would go > to > > :| > APNIC. If NIRs are representatives of ISPs in their country, they > should > > :| > receive the number of votes that reflects that representation. > > :| > > > :| > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > > :| > Participation is important and proxies are not desirable. If proxies > are > > :| > allowed, there may be cases where it is voted in favor of majority, > and > > :| the > > :| > opinion of the minorities would not be reflected. To make the > > :| > representation truly effective, the members who want to have a voice > > :| should > > :| > attend the meeting instead of having proxies, and the votes should be > > :| > counted on the basis on the number of the NIR members who attended > the > > :| > meeting. > > :| > > > :| > It may be better to discuss voting and financing as separate issues. > > :| > > > :| > Paul Wilson will left the meeting so that NIRs can make a discussion > among > > :| > themselves more openly. > > :| > > > :| > WS Chen(TWNIC) > > :| > Expressed concerns on connecting the number of votes with the fee > paid by > > :| > NIRs. > > :| > > > :| > Xing Li (EC) > > :| > We should look at things in what is the best in the longer term and > the > > :| > consequences of implementing this would be. > > :| > > > :| > WH Zhang(CNNIC) > > :| > Would like to take more time for discussion before reaching a > conclusion. > > :| > > > :| > Sanjaya(APJII) > > :| > It may be a good idea to have a model where both the population and > the > > :| > countries are represented separately. > > :| > > > :| > Conclusion > > :| > More discussions to be made on NIR mailing list. > > :| > > > :| > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > :| > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > > :| > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > > :| > Korea Network Information Center > > :| > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > > :| > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > > :| > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > :| > > > :| > From owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Mon Feb 19 13:26:07 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA128942; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:26:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from mail.nic.or.kr (mail.nic.or.kr [202.30.50.115]) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA128937; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:26:03 +1000 (EST) Received: from nystyle ([203.255.208.131]) by mail.nic.or.kr (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f1J2tlD16968; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:55:47 +0900 (KST) Message-ID: <006701c09a1f$8ecc6f00$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMy9wrnO?= To: "John Tran" , Cc: , "George Kuo" References: Subject: Re: number of attendees for each NIR Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:56:29 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Precedence: bulk Dear Son. Yes..I know what you saying and that is reasonable issue. Up to this meeting, I want to keep our limitation as previous. So, Only 3 person can attend NIR meeting from each NIR. I am planning to discuss this matter at the meeting. Following is confirmed attendee's list ====================================================== APIJJ - ?????? APNIC - Paul Wilson, Son Tran, George Kuo CNNIC - Qian Hualin, Wei Mao, Wenhui Zhang and Yan Luo JPNIC - Tsukasa Ogino, Yuka Suzuki, Akinori Maemura KRNIC - Seung-Min Lee, Sung-Woo Shin, Yong-Wan Ju TWNIC - Wen Sung, Chen, Shih Chiung, Ouyang ====================================================== Mr. George or Ms. Kyoko, have you tried to contact APJII?? Could you ask that they will participate meeting or not? Sincerley ---------------------------------------------------------- Seung-Min Lee/Manager Policy Development and Statistic Research Division Korea Network Information Center Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr ---------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: John Tran To: Cc: ; George Kuo Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 10:57 AM Subject: number of attendees for each NIR > > > Hi Seung-min, > > I just noticed that a couple of NIRs will have more than 3 people attend > the NIR meeting but according to our previous agreement that each NIR > should have maximum of three people attend. This will avoid the case where > some of NIR will dominate the meeting by having too many people presence. > As you are currently a chair for this meeting therefore we would > like your opinion on this. Should we continue to limit the number of > people attend from each NIR? Or 4 is a reasonable number for each NIR? > > > Kind regards > > Son > From owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Mon Feb 19 13:26:10 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA128959; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:26:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from mail.nic.or.kr (mail.nic.or.kr [202.30.50.115]) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA128941 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:26:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from nystyle ([203.255.208.131]) by mail.nic.or.kr (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f1J2UYD15816; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:30:34 +0900 (KST) Message-ID: <002401c09a1c$0928bb40$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMy9wrnO?= To: "oyang" , References: <004901c097fb$469db520$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> <008501c09a15$86478a40$2bd348d3@twnic.net.tw> Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:31:16 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Precedence: bulk Ms. Oyang Thank you for your reply. I will add Mr. Wen Sung, Chen and you on the attendee's list of 3rd NIR Meeting. Regards. See you at KL. ---------------------------------------------------------- Seung-Min Lee/Manager Policy Development and Statistic Research Division Korea Network Information Center Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr ---------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: oyang To: ?渥寨? ; Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 10:44 AM Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > Hi Seung Min, and NIR-members, > > Attending the NIR meeting from TWNIC are: > 1. Wen Sung, Chen ( Executive Director ) > 2. Shih Chiung, Ouyang ( Senior Administrator ) > > Best regards, > > Shih Chiung > TWNIC > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "?渥寨? > To: "?渥寨? ; > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 5:31 PM > Subject: Re: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > > > > Hello Everyone. > > > > Since I sent out following Announcement, I have not receive any mail > > from NIR members. > > > > I must check the list of attendee. > > > > Therefore, all NIR members, please notify how many persons and who > > will attend meeting ASAP. > > > > Thank you > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > > Korea Network Information Center > > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: 瑼?? > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 4:02 PM > > Subject: 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting at KL > > > > > > > Dear All APNIC NIR Members. > > > As a chair of NIR Meeting, > > > I announce the 3rd APNIC NIR Meeting as following. > > > > > > Comments are welcome. > > > > > > See you all at APRICOT 2000. > > > > > > Thank you > > > ---------------------- > > Announcement ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > Title : 3rd APNIC NIR member meeting > > > Date : Tuesday 27 February during the BOF in the evening. > > > Venue : TBA > > > > > > Following is the draft Agenda for NIR meeting. > > > > > > ==================================================================== > > > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > > > ==================================================================== > > > 1. Welcome > > > > > > 2. Agenda Bashing > > > > > > 3. review of Minutes from last meeting > > > > > > 4. status of open actions > > > > > > - Criteria for establishment of new NIRs paper > > > + this should be prepared by APNIC. or just draft doc itself will > be > > > okay > > > > > > - assessment of the "despatch a staff" internship to APNIC in > practice > > > what about APJII and APNIC. > > > > > > - Trial Procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address > space > > > + Check just any further progress > > > > > > - The probles of APNIC membership fee and number of vote > > > + APNIC report about EC decision and we need more discuss about > > future > > > Driving plan. > > > + How about JPNIC? Don't you have any idea about this?? no > > > presentation? > > > > > > 5. Proposal "Request Evaluation by APNIC" / George Kuo(APNIC) > > > > > > 6. Other Working items > > > - will be collect from other NIR. > > > > > > 6. elect new NIR chair > > > > > > 7. Future Plan include Next NIR Meeting > > > > > > 8. Close > > > ==================================================================== > > > DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT > > > ==================================================================== > > > > > > > > > -------------- Minutes of 2nd NIR Meeting ----------------------- > > > > > > 24/10/00, 17:30嚗?9:30 > > > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > > > Brisbane, Australia > > > > > > Present > > > APJII : Sanjaya, Irvan Nasrun > > > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > > > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > > > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani > > > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > > > APNIC : Paul Wilson, Anne Lord, George Kuo > > > > > > Agenda > > > 1. Assessment of the 'dispatch a staff' internship to APNIC (KRNIC) > > > > > > KRNIC > > > It was quite successful and helpful for KRNIC. > > > > > > APJII > > > We have a plan to dispatch Irvan Nasrun sooner or later. > > > > > > JPNIC > > > We have the plan and the budget for dispatching a staff, but actually we > > > have not. > > > > > > APNIC > > > It was also good for us to know the status of KRNIC through the > dispatch. > > > But there was some misunderstanding about APNIC, we have a flat > > decision > > > making system. > > > > > > 2. The trial procedure for the member ISP using Large-scale IP address > > space > > > (KRNIC) > > > > > > 3. PA Assignments (APNIC) Anne Lord > > > also presented in Address Policy SIG > > > > > > > > > -------------- Minutes of Special NIR Meeting ------------------------- > > > > > > 25/10/00, 08:00嚗?9:30 > > > Paterson Room 2 Novotel Brisbane > > > Brisbane, Australia > > > > > > Attendees > > > APJII : Sanjaya > > > CNNIC : Zhang Wen Hui, Xia Qing > > > KRNIC : Lee, Seung-Min, Shin, Sung-Woo > > > JPNIC : Akinori Maemura, Izumi Okutani, Naomasa Murayama > > > TWNIC : Wen Sung Chen, Shih Chiung Ouyang, Trancy Tsai > > > APNIC Secretariat : Paul Wilson > > > APNIC EC : Geoff Huston, Xing Li > > > > > > Agenda : > > > Problems of APNIC Membership Fee and the Number of Votes by Seung-Min > Lee > > > KRNIC > > > > > > Seung-Min Lee from KRNIC presented the proposal to re-consider the > voting > > > structure in proportion with the fees that NIRs are paying to APNIC. > > > Although NIRs consist of several organizations, they are considered as > one > > > organization. As a result, the interest of the members in their country > is > > > not reflected well in APNIC operation as they would have if they were > > > individual APNIC members.. > > > > > > Geoff Huston > > > Argued that the number of votes per county listed in Seung-Min's > > > presentation is not the actual number of votes casted per country as > many > > > members don't attend the AMM to vote, and currently, APNIC makes a point > > > about voting with the member's presence. > > > > > > Furthermore, policy making is based on consensus and is not based on the > > > number of votes, but the willingness to participate. From this respect, > > NIRs > > > have a strong say. > > > > > > Sanjaya(APJII) > > > It is understood that the actual practice and the formal structure is > > > different, but it is desirable that they match. What would be the > > > disadvantage if they implement Seung-Min's proposal? > > > > > > Paul Wison(APNIC) > > > APNIC gains consensus from both big and small organizations. If APNIC > > > implements the proposal, small organization would have a smaller say, > and > > > may seek outside APNIC to have their voice heard. > > > > > > Seung-Min Lee > > > If small ISPs in Korea don't get to reflect their voice, NIR has no role > > as > > > their representative. > > > > > > Maruyama(JPNIC) > > > -NIRs work on behalf of APNIC > > > -many small members are not interested in policy making and have become > > > members to receive the address space. Therefore, separating the > > > membership and allocation would solve the problem. > > > > > > Paul Wison(APNIC) > > > APNIC is considering the membership without receiving the address space, > > so > > > it is a good consideration to make. > > > > > > Maruyama(JPNIC) > > > NIRs do play a big role in both funding and policy making. > > > > > > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > > > For taxation reason, APNIC needs to retain the membership system to > > allocate > > > addresses > > > Furthermore, having a fixed and variable fee is quite common, and APNIC > > does > > > not consider it as a double pay. > > > > > > Seung-Min Lee(KRNIC) > > > If ISP confederations pay per address, then other ISPs must also pay per > > > address for the consistency. Otherwise, all of KRNIC members would go to > > > APNIC. If NIRs are representatives of ISPs in their country, they > should > > > receive the number of votes that reflects that representation. > > > > > > Paul Wilson(APNIC) > > > Participation is important and proxies are not desirable. If proxies > are > > > allowed, there may be cases where it is voted in favor of majority, and > > the > > > opinion of the minorities would not be reflected. To make the > > > representation truly effective, the members who want to have a voice > > should > > > attend the meeting instead of having proxies, and the votes should be > > > counted on the basis on the number of the NIR members who attended the > > > meeting. > > > > > > It may be better to discuss voting and financing as separate issues. > > > > > > Paul Wilson will left the meeting so that NIRs can make a discussion > among > > > themselves more openly. > > > > > > WS Chen(TWNIC) > > > Expressed concerns on connecting the number of votes with the fee paid > by > > > NIRs. > > > > > > Xing Li (EC) > > > We should look at things in what is the best in the longer term and the > > > consequences of implementing this would be. > > > > > > WH Zhang(CNNIC) > > > Would like to take more time for discussion before reaching a > conclusion. > > > > > > Sanjaya(APJII) > > > It may be a good idea to have a model where both the population and the > > > countries are represented separately. > > > > > > Conclusion > > > More discussions to be made on NIR mailing list. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Seung-Min Lee/Manager > > > Policy Development and Statistic Research Division > > > Korea Network Information Center > > > Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 > > > E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Fri Feb 23 17:07:33 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA111279; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:07:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from mail.nic.or.kr (mail.nic.or.kr [202.30.50.115]) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA111274; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:07:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from nystyle ([203.255.208.131]) by mail.nic.or.kr (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f1N76FD23294; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:06:24 +0900 (KST) Message-ID: <009001c09d67$3f4d5980$83d0ffcb@nic.or.kr> From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMy9wrnO?= To: "MAEMURA Akionri" , , Cc: References: <200102222206.JCE13735.BNNF@gip.ad.jp> Subject: Re: [ec] Membership structure in response to NIRs Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:07:03 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0089_01C09DB2.A90CC5E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0089_01C09DB2.A90CC5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maemura, Paul and other NIR members Does anyone from EC present regard this matter on NIR meeting? I will just present 2 or 3 pages of presentation. and at the last meeting, I asked to APNIC that the how many IP address has been allocated to each country and how many fee has been payed to APNIC last year(2000). (plz check attached file) Can APNIC show those data at NIR meeting? Main issues for fee and vote are as following. 1. fee / NIR only pays per address fee For this issue, we must seriously consider what KPMG advice to APNIC. > Regarding this option, KPMG has given advice about APNIC's taxation status > which is very important to understand. This advice is that APNIC cannot > create any membership category which has unequal access to rights or > services, without affecting our "mutual fund" status. Therefore, any > "non-resource" members must have the same voting rights, proxy rights, and > access to services, as any other members. According to above advice, I assume all apnic members must have equal access to rights or services. On the APNIC member category, there is no NIR member category. Then, the fee structure of NIR must same as other member. But, NIR pays per address fee in addition membership fee. So, possible solution, we must make NIR category and well define what is NIR and what is the role of NIR. I think, the fee stucture must based on cost-recovery base. It means if any ISP or NIR get large amount of IP address then pay more. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 2. Number of Vote The same thought, Number of Vote must based on number of IP address holding is best. for alternate way, based on the money we pays to APNIC. What do you think? ---------------------------------------------------------- Seung-Min Lee/Manager Policy Development and Statistic Research Division Korea Network Information Center Phone : +82-2-2186-4506 Fax : +82-2-2186-4496 E-mail : seungmin@nic.or.kr URL : http://www.nic.or.kr ---------------------------------------------------------- ------=_NextPart_000_0089_01C09DB2.A90CC5E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="figure.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="figure.gif" R0lGODlhvgO1AfcAAAAAAPf39/////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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majordom@localhost) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA71022; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:49:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from guardian.apnic.net (guardian.apnic.net [203.37.255.100]) by ns.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA71012 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:49:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by guardian.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA22201 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:49:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from hadrian.staff.apnic.net(192.168.1.1) by int-gw.staff.apnic.net via smap (V2.1) id xma022171; Wed, 28 Feb 01 12:48:49 +1000 Received: from sewknee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hadrian.staff.apnic.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA26072 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:48:44 +1000 (EST) From: "Paul Wilson" To: Subject: Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:44:49 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-nir-discuss@lists.apnic.net Precedence: bulk Dear friends, Thanks to you all for a successful meeting last night, and also thanks again to Seung Min Lee for being such a good chair! In case you are not aware, the Friday meeting agenda is available at: http://www.apnic.net/meetings/programme/member_meeting.html And the NIR meeting report (by Seung Min) will be included in the "SIG and WG reports" session, starting at 2pm. Thanks. ______________________________________________________________________ Paul Wilson, Director-General, APNIC http://www.apnic.net ph/fx +61 7 3367 0490/82